Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

Homer, that was a very thoughtful response. May I ask what you personally believe as far as the fate of unbelievers and also, do you make exceptions for those who haven't heard the gospel? I think the universalist view can be held from scripture, like Steve said, but there are also verses which have something different in mind. I think the point here is that the modern view of hell (literal pit of flames where unbelievers suffer for eternity) is what most associate with hell today. When I studied the words for "hell" (hades, shoel, tartarus and gehenna) a very different picture is given.

Annihilation of unbelievers seems possible but I have problems with this since both the saved and the unsaved will be resurrected. Paul describes the resurrected body in 1 Cor. 15 as being imperishable. He was refering to the believer is Christ but is there any indication in scripture that the resurrected body of the unbeliever will be different ontologically? This may be an argument from silence so take it for what it's worth. Matthew 10:28 says "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus merely says that God is able to destory both, it doesn't indicate that he will. This verse, I think, is just constrasting the ultimate power of God with the very limited power of human beings.

The universalist position has one advantage to all the others, in my opinion. It allows for the ultimate victory over sin and death. But is it biblical? Well, at the crucifixion Jesus cried out to God to forgive those who were killing him. Did Jesus ask for something apart from God's will? Col. 1:20 says God will reconcile all things to himself. I wonder then, what "all things" refers to here. Why doesn't he say "reconcile the elect" or "reconcile the remnant." I find it difficult to hold a dogmatic opinion on the fate of unbelievers due to passages like this and others like it.

Having said all this, I know that God would be completely justified in tormenting unbelievers for eternity but let's face it, this just doesn't jive with the God revealed in Jesus Christ. When our Lord called out to the Father and pleaded for Him to forgive His killers, I don't see some vengeful Creator... I see a Creator who wants even his worst enemies to be forgiven. To say this view isn't biblical is not quite fair. I think the universalist view matches very well with the character of Christ. However, there are some passages that seem to indicate an undesireable future for unbelievers. This could simply mean that a lifetime spent opposing Christ would greatly weigh on the conscience of someone who finally sees his love. An eternity with that on my mind would certainly feel like hell. This concept, in my mind, gels very easily with what the bible teaches as well as the character of God revealed in Christ.

[Guest]

Homer, JCDV, have either of you two read what I wrote concerning hell? I'm just curious, because the questions you've been wrestling with find good answers, IMHO, in what I wrote. For example, Homer brought up how someone suffering for any length of time could expiate sins. Look at what I wrote and see if it doesn't posit a way for someone to suffer in order to change their inward character so that they could remain in God's presence.

Damon

[Guest]

Homer, What Steve was referring to was the unrepentent adulterer i believe. This verse is at the end of Rev after death has been destroyed and then the dead are thrown into the lake of fire. But it does'nt say how long unbelievers are in the lake of fire. And if you notice in that verse about adulterers it also mentions the "cowardly." Have you ever been cowardly? I know i have and probably everybody has at one time or another. So it's referring to the unrepentent sinner and it comes AFTER the LAKE OF FIRE. So if people are alive in the lake of fire can we trust Jesus when he says WHOSOEVER.
" And the Spirit and the bride say ,come and let him that hears say,come and let him that is thirsty come and WHOSOEVER WILL ,let him take the water OF LIFE FREELY." Rev 22.17
The believers constitute the bride so who are the Spirit and the Bride speaking to? Any guesses?

[Guest]

Damon, I did read your posts and your view is the one that I currently hold so this is why I didn't challenge your post. I'm looking to find out what others believe because perhaps my current view is misatken. The fact that the unbelievers will feel remorse when they know the truth is nothing new or controversial. The questions is... is that remorse their eternal punishment? I think it probably is but again, I find it hard to be dogmatic about this position. Also, becoming "spiritually sensitive" don't quite sound as chilling to an unbeliever as "burning in hell forever." That was a joke, but it brings me to my next point.

It seems as though the hellfire and damnation crowd have less than pure motives. For example, if you find out that God will ultimately forgive everyone of their sins, what motive does the Christian have for following Christ? That's the questions that reveals a person's motive. If I know everyone will eventually be saved and I still follow Christ and endure hardship on account of His name, it can be said that my motives are pure. However, if I do it to escape hellfire then are my motives based on fear or love? "We love God because He first loved us." (1 john 4:19)

In 1 Cor. 13:13 Paul writes, "Abide in faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Why does love trump all else? Perhaps Paul should have said to abide in fear and dogmatic contention to appease the 21st century Christian. Now, don't get me wrong, the bible often speaks of fearing the Lord. But do we obey Christ because we want to escape punishment or because he first loved us? Perhaps both, if I'm being honest, but a pure motive is derived from love. If everyone knew that universal salvation would occur, many Christians would be angered by this because they follow and preach Christ from fear of punishment, and not because they love Him.

[Guest]

JCDV, you've raised a very interesting point. Separating it from the related issue of universal salvation - and regardless of whether universal salvation is accurate or not - should one worship God out of fear, or love?

I struggled with a very similar issue when I first became converted, so I sympathize with how you feel. But I'd like to posit the following line of reasoning to you:

* When God created man, did He desire obedience out of love, or because of their fear of dying? The answer, IMHO, isn't exactly clear-cut.

* Did God bless Abraham because Abraham obeyed Him out of fear, or because Abraham loved Him - because Abraham was "the friend of God"? (Isa. 41:8; James 2:23) Again, the answer isn't exactly clear-cut, but I'm getting to something.

* Did God bless the Israelites because they loved Him, or because they obeyed Him out of fear? In this case, the answer is anything but clear, because God commanded them to love Him. Right?

Consider this. Someone who acts from love has no need to fear punishment. But someone who doesn't act based on love can only be motivated by fear. Furthermore, according to Galatians, the whole purpose of the Mosaic Law, with all of its associated punishments, was only to lead the Israelites to Christ - so that they could act based on love!

In conclusion, I don't believe that God desires people to worship Him out of fear. Nevertheless, God uses the threat of punishment in order to instill proper respect, and used the Mosaic Law to lead the Israelites towards acting in love.

As far as the fiery glory of God which will fill the earth, I believe that it will cause people to understand why they should want to repent of their sins, since they'll supernaturally know just how those sins have affected others. Some may choose to repent from the heart after experiencing that pain, but I believe that others won't. In other words, I'm pretty sure that there is no guaranteed, universal salvation.

One might question whether, in a scenario such a this, some might choose to repent in order to escape the pain. I suggest that some might do just that. However, I also believe in a literal thousand-year reign of Christ, after which Satan will be let loose to tempt people once more. Those who never really repented from the heart in the first place will fall prey to this temptation, and experience the second - and final - death.

I don't know whether others would agree, but this all makes sense to me. *shrugs*

Damon

[Guest]

It has been a long hard day for an old man but I'll try to respond to some of your comments/questions.

What I would be most happy to find true would be 1. universalism, 2. anihilationism, and last 3. eternal punishment. What do I find the best biblical evidence for? The reverse order; I am arguing against my desires!

It seems to me there is a great degree of "not seeing the forest for the trees" here. Ambiguous statements in scripture are cobbled together to form a doctrine. When the Bible, for example, says "the period of restoration of all things (NASB) it is not at all certain that it means all will be saved. It can just as easily mean all will be resurrected. Norman Geisler, in his Encyclopedia of Apologetics, comments that Acts 3:20-21 does not remotely hint that there will be universal salvation. Rather than futile arguing over the what aionios means, I would ask that you consider the tenor of the whole of scripture. If all the passages cosisting of warnings, and yes, threats were torn from the pages we would probably find 1/3 of the Bible missing! Are these hollow threats? (It is interesting to note that they are almost always addressed to believers, but that's another storey.)

When Paul gives a warning, such as in Galatians 5:19-21, I understand him to mean that those who do not head his warning during this life, will never have any place in God's kingdom. Warning after warning can be cited.

As for the reason most people come to Christ, I believe they love God for the sake of self initially, and hopefully grow from there as Bernard de Claivaux so ably pointed out in his "ladder of love". There is nothing wrong with this - Jesus appealed to people to "save yourselves".

If you check my earlier posts on this thread, you will find my opinion regarding those who never hear the Gospel and what I think Hell actually is.

Damon, where does the bible inform us of this "supernatural sensitivity" you describe? Is it in 3rd Peter? (Just kidding) Seriously, where do you find this?

As for Jesus prayer for God to forgive those who crucified Him, I believe He was practicing what He preachd: pray for your enemies. I believe He was asking the Father to bring them to repentance and we find many of them did on the day of Pentecost!

[Guest]

Actually the more i read scripture and the original meaning of the greek words the more it seems to me universalism is possible. As far as thinking then , why should i commit myself to Christ in this life i think we should remember what Jesus said to Judas "It would have been better for you if you were never born." And Judas was'nt even the worst sinner because Paul said he was. So the lake of fire is no day at the beach it's no place you want to be. And Jesus said that "the saints would judge the world" because the saints are judged in this lifetime whereas the unsaved are judged ON THAT DAY.
But again back to the verse that no one responds to which is right at the end of scripture after unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire and after death and hades has been destroyed.
" And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come ! And let HIM WHO HEARS say,Come! And let him who thirsts come. WHOEVER DESIRES,let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY." Rev 22.17
This is Gods final call to people who are not yet saved , but the only unsaved people left at the point are the unbelievers thrown into the lake of fire. Notice the BRIDE which are the saints help call the unbelievers left in the lake of fire. The BRIDE AND THE SPIRIT are calling who? Who are they calling. The unbelievers in the lake of fire are still being called! WHOSOEVER desires. But what about mans freewill ? Well how did Pauls freewill standup to God? Pauls freewill stood up for 30 seconds.

[_ryanfromcollegestation]

Hi,

I've just caught up with the developments of this thread and would like to throw in my two cents:

1) I believe we all desperately need the Holy Spirit, so that we might be "led into ALL truth", as well as "be conformed into the image of Christ." I pray this is our chief goal and race, to press on to know Him.

Jesus said "This is eternal life - that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3)

It's been my experience that even the most complex of theological issues have been unmuddied when I get alone with Jesus and seek His face. I pray that is true for all of us here...

2) I believe the issue of what happens to the unbeliever after death isn't as important for their sakes as it is for the Lord Jesus' sake. The issue is His glory, not man's condition.

The motivation for leading others' to Christ through our life, lips, and love is so that He might be given the reward for His suffering as King and God, their love, devotion, and worship.

We can all agree that Jesus is the one has suffered so that sinners might have life in His name. Jesus not receiving worship rightly due His name is the real tragedy of a lost soul. May that perspective breath reality and motivation in our hearts.

A good sermon to listen to on this subject is "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" by Paris Reidhead. Find it at www.sermonindex.net.

3) Perhaps it's just me, but the flow of this discussion has been in large part very confusing. Every once in a while there is a well thought out, clearly stated position or point, but the rest of them seem to be thrown together out of almost nowhere, and when drawn out to their logical ends produce some extremely dangerous conclusions. Again, perhaps I am mistaken, but I really hope that this thread can be profitable towards one's pursuit to "grow in the grace and knowledge" of Christ. Lest we drift from this necessity, let us all consider this verse:

"For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there." - James 3:16

May we all avoid this...

[Guest]

Damon, where does the bible inform us of this "supernatural sensitivity" you describe? Is it in 3rd Peter? (Just kidding) Seriously, where do you find this?

I'm deriving the principle based on various passages of Scripture:

1. The glory of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) will fill the whole earth (Num. 14:21).

2. The glory of the Lord is like fire (Ex. 24:17) which will fill both the heavens and the earth (2 Pet. 3:7).

3. The glory of the Lord, which is the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of Love (2 Tim. 1:7).

4. The symbolism of baptism, whether by water or fire, represents death and rebirth, it's true, but specifically the death of the carnal nature and the birth of the new nature based on acting in love. See my study on "Water and the Spirit".

Interesting, innit?

Damon

[Guest]

I'm deriving the principle based on various passages of Scripture:

1. The glory of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) will fill the whole earth (Num. 14:21).

2. The glory of the Lord is like fire (Ex. 24:17) which will fill both the heavens and the earth (2 Pet. 3:7).

3. The glory of the Lord, which is the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of Love (2 Tim. 1:7).

4. The symbolism of baptism, whether by water or fire, represents death and rebirth, it's true, but specifically the death of the carnal nature and the birth of the new nature based on acting in love. See my study on "Water and the Spirit".

Interesting, innit?

Damon

Damon,

Are you stating, in your study mentioned above, and in your comments here, that you have got it all figured out and know what you say to be true, or are you speculating and posting your ideas. From reading your study and other things you write it often sounds like you are teaching facts you have uncovered rather than posing some interesting "possibilities". *In my opinion*, your posts are interesting but do not prove themselves from scripture.

Thanks,

Mike