Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

And so, Calvinism is really a form of deterministic universalism.

What are some other thoughts?

I think you said that backwards. It should be, I think, that deterministic universalism is a form of Calvinism.

[Guest]

And so, Calvinism is really a form of deterministic universalism.

What are some other thoughts?

It doesn't seem that Cavinism is any kind of universalism, since, according to Calvinism many or most people end up in hell forever.

However it does seem plausible that "deterministic universalism is a form of Calvinism."

[Guest]

I haven't been on here much or often.

First, I'd like to say that I'm greatly encouraged with the discussion regarding the minimilization of the wrath of God. And secondly, I'd like to clarify my use of terms on page 15. I stated that I felt that humanitarian philosophy was seeping in to the church. I apologize for my use of the word humanitarian, and realized my use of that word could be the reason for the lack of responses to my statement. What I meant to say was humanistic philosophy.

Also I'd like to reply to the post that stated that Calvinism is a form of deterministic universalism. If your talking about those that adhere to a form of Calvinism that is frequently called "4-point calvinism" I would agree. 4-point Calvinists insists on the truth of the four points of Calvinism that are TUIP. But reject the L that is Limited Atonement or that I prefer to call Particular Atonement. And insist on believing in the Arminian doctrine of unlimited atonement. If you take 4-point Calvinism to its logical conclusion you will come up with universalism. But I would have to reject 4-point Calvinism as Calvinism at all.

Peace in Christ,

Frank and Beans

[Guest]

Also I'd like to reply to the post that stated that Calvinism is a form of deterministic universalism. If your talking about those that adhere to a form of Calvinism that is frequently called "4-point calvinism" I would agree. 4-point Calvinists insists on the truth of the four points of Calvinism that are TUIP. But reject the L that is Limited Atonement or that I prefer to call Particular Atonement. And insist on believing in the Arminian doctrine of unlimited atonement. If you take 4-point Calvinism to its logical conclusion you will come up with universalism. But I would have to reject 4-point Calvinism as Calvinism at all.

Brother, how many petals are on your T.U.L.I.P.? Let us know, so we can know who we are dealing with.

When the T.U.L.I.P. is held up to the Light of Scripture, <b>all</b> the petals fall off. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Guest]

Rev 14:9-11 "Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I might have missed it in my going back through and trying to read through this thread, but has anyone dealt with this passage in relation to the debate? I would like to know what an annihilationist response would be. Thanks.

[Guest]

Rev 14:9-11 "Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I might have missed it in my going back through and trying to read through this thread, but has anyone dealt with this passage in relation to the debate? I would like to know what an annihilationist response would be. Thanks.

I am not sure I qualify as an annihilationist, however I notice the similarity in the language in the above passage and the passage in Isaiah 34:6-10. There we see the destruction of Edom predicted using much the same terminology.

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Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
Isa 34:7 Wild oxen will also fall with them And young bulls with strong ones; Thus their land will be soaked with blood, And their dust become greasy with fat.
Isa 34:8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Isa 34:9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

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-- fire and brimstone vs. pitch and brimstone
-- no rest night or day vs. fire not quenched night or day
-- smoke of torment ascending forever vs. smoke going up forever

Edom was destroyed long ago, and its smoke is not still ascending. I think we see in both of these passages typical, prophetic, apocalyptic language.

Just my take on it...

Mike

[Guest]

Mark 9:47-48: ....to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire- "Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Here we find Jesus warning of that awful fate that awaits the lost. He uses gehenna, a place well known to the Jews as a place of continual, unending fire, as a metaphor for hell. If the lost are only going to be there temporarily, even though for a very long time, what relevance would it be to them that the fire never goes out? How would that concern them? Why would Jesus make note of that?

[Guest]

Mark 9:47-48: ....to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire- "Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Here we find Jesus warning of that awful fate that awaits the lost. He uses gehenna, a place well known to the Jews as a place of continual, unending fire, as a metaphor for hell. If the lost are only going to be there temporarily, even though for a very long time, what relevance would it be to them that the fire never goes out? How would that concern them? Why would Jesus make note of that?

This seems to me to be a reference to Isaiah 66:24.

"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

Notice that it is the corpses of men that are burning in Gehenna, not the souls of men in hell.

Some would say that this is a reference to the punishment that was about to take place in 70AD.

1) It seems to me the point isn't that the fire never goes out, but that it is not quenched (able to be put out). When the material being burned is gone, the fire goes out by itself?

2) It says worms don't die, it doesn't say the people don't. In fact Isaiah 66 says that the people are already corpses.

What would the people who were listening to Jesus have thought He was referring to. Gehenna was a place well known to them. Hell was not something taught in the OT. If He told people in the 1st century that anyone who caused a follower of His to stumble would be in danger of Gehenna, is it reasonable to think they would associate that with a place of eternal torment, or a place where the corpses of bad people were thrown after they had been executed?

I would just like to be open to the *possibility* that eternal torment is not what God has in mind for those who reject Him.

Mike

[Guest]

Hell was not something taught in the OT.

Could you explain that statement? Don't you mean, maybe, that a certain Hebrew word for hell was not taught.

The english word "hell" can be found in many place. (KJV)

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." - Psalm 9:17

[Guest]

Hell was not something taught in the OT.

Could you explain that statement? Don't you mean, maybe, that a certain Hebrew word for hell was not taught.

The english word "hell" can be found in many place. (KJV)

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." - Psalm 9:17

*Unfortunately*, the people listening to Jesus didn't have the *advantage* of reading our English translations.

They had to go with the Hebrew which used sheol, which usually should be rendered the grave, or place of the dead, something like that.