Alternative Views of Hell

Post by **_ryanfrombryan** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:40 pm

Those replies are very helpful. The only problem I see is that none of these OT parallel's speak of the people themselves being concsious while the fire is continually burning them and not giving them rest.

"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,"

There seems to be a connection between them having no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever. I agree that without the first part of that statement it would be a pretty easy to deal with given the OT parallel, which John draws heavily upon throughout the book. But this added, in my opinion, obvious consciousness to the endless torment seems to me that John is making a point about the state of the people being punished.

Replies are grateful.

Ryan

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:48 pm

ryanfrombryan wrote:Those replies are very helpful. The only problem I see is that none of these OT parallel's speak of the people themselves being concsious while the fire is continually burning them and not giving them rest.

"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,"

There seems to be a connection between them having no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever. I agree that without the first part of that statement it would be a pretty easy to deal with given the OT parallel, which John draws heavily upon throughout the book. But this added, in my opinion, obvious consciousness to the endless torment seems to me that John is making a point about the state of the people being punished.

Replies are grateful.

Ryan

Ryan,

Perhaps this is referring to the spiritual death that comes upon everyone due to sin. They have no rest because of their conscience and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Just a thought.

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:56 pm

"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,

The way "forever" is used in scripture usually means for as long as the thing lasts.
Jonah in describing how he felt in the belly of the fish for 3 days and nights uses "forever."
"The earth with it's bars closed behind me forever, Yet you have brought up my life from the pit." Jonah 2.6
And there are many examples like this where it refers to something that feels like forever to the victim.

Post by **_mdh** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:50 pm

ryanfrombryan wrote:Those replies are very helpful. The only problem I see is that none of these OT parallel's speak of the people themselves being concsious while the fire is continually burning them and not giving them rest.

"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,"

There seems to be a connection between them having no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever. I agree that without the first part of that statement it would be a pretty easy to deal with given the OT parallel, which John draws heavily upon throughout the book. But this added, in my opinion, obvious consciousness to the endless torment seems to me that John is making a point about the state of the people being punished.

Replies are grateful.

Ryan

1) This event seems to be happening while there is still day and night. Rev. 21:25 seems to indicate (at least in the new Jerusalem) there will be no more night. Does this indicate that the passage is not referring to the final state of the condemned? Maybe..

2) I believe this passage is talking about the fall of Jerusalem. The *smoke* of the destruction of the city, and the wicked that were killed, is what is ascending. It does not say that they are tormented (aoinios - ages upon ages) *forever*, but the *smoke* of the torment is rising. I know, this may seem like a small point.

3) This torment is happening in the presence of the Lamb and the angels, while it seems (2 Thes 1:9) that the destruction at the final judgement is to be (away) from the presence of the Lord. Perhaps 2 separate judgements are in view?

Mike

Post by **_loaves** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:58 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:The way "forever" is used in scripture usually means for as long as the thing lasts.

The word "everlasting" in the NT, used to desribe hell, is the same word used to desribe both God and heaven. Both God and heaven are everlasting, wouldn't you agree??

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:32 pm

The word "aionios" has been translated by some as "eternal".
The word is actually the adjectival or adverbial form of the word "aion" which means "age". So how can the word mean "eternal".

The Greek word for "eternal" is "aidios" and is used twice in the New Testament ----- in one case it is used in the phrase "His eternal power and deity".

The word "aionios" may mean "going from age to age" or in other cases "permanently".

A good example in which the word obviously doesn't mean "forever" is
the following from Philemon. Paul is writing to Philemon about his runaway slave Onesimus:

Perhaps this is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back permanently. Philemon 1:15

The word which I translated above as "permanently" is clearly not "eternally" or "forever". Yet most translations use "forever".

Perhaps they think it is used figuratively as we sometimes use the word "forever" today. But if that is the case, then perhaps it is used figuratively in the scriptures that are used concerning suffering in Gehenna.

However, I think that when it speaks of the "goats" as undergoing
"aionios" correction, it means "correction going-from-age-to-age."
The same applies to the sheep who have "life going-from-age-to-age."
When something goes from age to age, it may continue forever, or it may not. In the case of the sheep, their life will continue forever, but in the case of the goats, their correction will some day end. Otherwise, how could it be correction?

In any case, the idea of "eternal" or "forever" IS NOT inherent in the meaning of "aionios".

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:12 pm

Father_of_five wrote:
ryanfrombryan wrote:Those replies are very helpful. The only problem I see is that none of these OT parallel's speak of the people themselves being concsious while the fire is continually burning them and not giving them rest.

"and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,"

There seems to be a connection between them having no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment going up forever and ever. I agree that without the first part of that statement it would be a pretty easy to deal with given the OT parallel, which John draws heavily upon throughout the book. But this added, in my opinion, obvious consciousness to the endless torment seems to me that John is making a point about the state of the people being punished.

Replies are grateful.

Ryan
Ryan,

Perhaps this is referring to the spiritual death that comes upon everyone due to sin. They have no rest because of their conscience and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Just a thought.

Todd

Here's a scripture reference which may support this idea.

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Todd

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:18 pm

Father_of_five wrote:Here's a scripture reference which may support this idea.

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Todd

Perhaps that verse is saying God will eradicate sin from the world. Removing from His presence the unfaithful.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:34 pm

Over 99.9% of all people who die have never become disciples of Christ.
If they are either annihilated or sent to eternal torture, then it appears that Christ has lost the spiritual battle for the souls of mankind, and that the devil has won out after all.

However, every scripture on the subject indicates that Christ has defeated Satan.

Man wins victory in a war by wiping out his enemies.

Christ wins victory in His war by winning His enemies to His side.

Here is Origen's statement of the purpose of the Lake of Fire:

... God Acts in dealing with sinners as a physician ... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... De Principiis ii.x. 4,6

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:41 pm

Here is Origen's statement of the purpose of the Lake of Fire:

... God Acts in dealing with sinners as a physician ... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... De Principiis ii.x. 4,6

And where is that verse that the GATES of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God or "my church" Matt 16. Sounds like the kingdom of God is pushing in the gates of hell and the gates will collapse.