Are We Dead When We're Dead(until the resurrection)?

[Guest]

But if this were the case then it is not "death" that is the gain but the resurrection of the dead itself. The only way that Paul could believe "death" itself is gain is if he believed his "inner man" would be present with the Lord at the moment of his death.

This argument does not appear to be valid, since it seems to work equally well, if one could turn around in favour of the resurrection:

But if this were the case, then it is not "death" that is the gain, but being present with the Lord at the moment of death. The only way that Paul could believe that "death" itself is gain is if he believed that from his perspective, he would be immediately present with the Lord in the resurrection.

[Guest]

This argument does not appear to be valid, since it seems to work equally well, if one could turn around in favour of the resurrection:

But if this were the case, then it is not "death" that is the gain, but being present with the Lord at the moment of death. The only way that Paul could believe that "death" itself is gain is if he believed that from his perspective, he would be immediately present with the Lord in the resurrection.



I'd have to respectfully disagree because i think Paul is equating "death" and "present with the Lord" as the same thing and both are gain to the believer.
If he believed in "soul sleep" then death is like a long sleep for us and is not being with the Lord and would'nt in itself get us any closer to being with the Lord.
I don't think that Paul ever definitively claimed the resurrection was imminent although he may have expressed a hope that it might be.

[Guest]

Paidion,

For what its worth, I think you present a good case. Thanks for the study and the desire to share what you have learned.

Todd

[Guest]

Okay Paidion- a friend brought up Elijah and Enoch being taken up-

where were they taken up to? Do they represent special cases, exceptions to the general rule? if they are not currently in heaven, where are they? Is it possible that since they already had their physical body(when taken), they therefore will not need to be resurrected, sort of like a preview of the rapture?

Thanks for your continuing dialogue.

TK

[Guest]

Okay Paidion- a friend brought up Elijah and Enoch being taken up- where were they taken up to?

If you had asked me this question 15 years ago, I would have said, "I don't know. The Bible doesn't say. So we will have to let that rest as one of the mysteries of God."

Since that time I have read in an early Christian writer, that they did not die a physical death, and are still alive in their physical bodies, and that God has chosen to preserve those two from death until He sends them to earth again as the two end-time witnesses described in the book of Revelation. Then they will be slain as recorded in Revelation, and after three days of death, they will experience their resurrection. I am presently inclined toward that view.

Do they represent special cases, exceptions to the general rule?

They are certainly exceptional, the only people who have been "taken alive" so to speak. But if they have never died, then they would not be exceptions to the "general rule" of death and resurrection. Indeed, if they are the two witnesses, they will have their death and resurrection later.

if they are not currently in heaven, where are they? Is it possible that since they already had their physical body(when taken), they therefore will not need to be resurrected, sort of like a preview of the rapture?

According to the words of Jesus, they could not already be in heaven since, "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man." [John 3:13] I have no idea where they are.

In "the rapture", "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed", have immortal bodies like those who will be raised from death at that time. But these two are not yet immortal.

[Guest]

Padion wrote:

According to the words of Jesus, they could not already be in heaven since, "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man." [John 3:13] I have no idea where they are.

Have you ever heard a "theory" that they are still alive on earth, somewhere? I have never heard of this, but wonder if this is a possibility.

TK

[Guest]

John: 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?”

what about this one?

TK

[Guest]

John: 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?”

what about this one?

TK

TK,

I believe that Jesus is not referring to physical death here; he is speaking of a kind of spiritual death. We are told that the prodigal son was "dead" while wasting his life in riotous living (Luke 15:24). The woman in the following verse, who is engulfed in a self-indulgent lifestyle, is also said to be "dead".

1 Tim 5:6
But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

In the verse you quoted Jesus explains that someone who believes and follows Jesus will not stray into a self-destructive spiritual death.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd-

my only question with what you are saying is that Jesus says even if a believer in him may die, yet shall he live. May not Jesus be stating that even though you may die physically, your soul/spirit lives on?

TK

[Guest]

John: 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?”

what about this one?

TK

If this is what Jesus said, He appears to have contradicted the first sentence by uttering the second. The first sentence states that he who believes in Him may die. The second states that whoever believes in Him shall never die.

The only way in which these two sentences could be true is if the word "die" in the first sentence is used in a different sense than it is in the second --- for example if the word in the first sentence refers to physical death, and in the second "spiritual" death. However, I doubt that this is the case. I think the word is used for physical death in both sentences.

I think the first thing to do is to look at the statements in the language in which they were written. What follows is a rather literal translation of the words:

Jesus said to her, "I, I am the resurrection and the life; the one entrusting [himself] into me even if he should die will live, and everyone living and entrusting [himself] into me, no way dies into the age."

I think that in the second clause, Jesus was saying that the one who entrusts himself to him will not die (continue in a state of death) into the next age (the Kingdom age), for at the beginning of the kingdom age such people will be raised from death.

Both clauses state that those who entrust themselves to Christ will be raised again to life. The context of the whole passage is about physical resurrection, the resurrection of the body.

After saying these things, Jesus raised Lazarus, whose body had begun to decay, back to life. True Lazarus' body was still mortal after he was brought to life. For the first to receive a true resurrction to immortality was Jesus himself, and then the many who were raised shortly afterward when "the graves were opened".

They, together with Jesus were the "first fruits" of the resurrection. Those whom Jesus will raise as His coming are "the harvest". And those who will be raised at the end of the thousand years whose names are in the Lamb's book of life, will be "the gleanings".