Thayer's "Origin and History..."

[Guest]

Steve, I realize that one of the church fathers had mentioned all Christians fleeing Jerusalem prior to it's final downfall, thus "escaping geheena." However, was dying inside the city much different from dying as a Roman candle in Nero's garden? It seems that innocent children and babies were killed in the seige on Jerusalem so dying in the city and being cast into the Valley of Hinnom might not necessarily mean you are under God's judgement.

Perhaps one could argue that Jesus (as prophet) warned his disciples to flee once the city was surrounded and to not do so would result in disobedience, but it's possible that some of them didn't "get the message" and stayed. I know church history tells us no Christians stayed but I'm not sure how someone could know whether or not any Christian was left behind, if you'll pardon the expression.

To give a better example, what if a modern day city came under God's judgement and he allowed it to be nuked by an enemy. The city could be under God's judgement but many Christians would've possibly died as a result of this general judgement.

My point is this: If this teaching of Jesus was about dying as good martyr, he used a very debatable example. The thief on the cross who got saved, for example, was probably tossed into geheena. Would Jesus' audience readily know that being thrown into geheena meant one was under God's judgement? I'm asking because I don't know.

[Guest]

Jesus did not say that every Jew would either end up a Christian martyr or else in the Valley of Hinnom. That was not His point. He was, in fact, instructing His disciples that they should not be afraid of martyrdom, as it is a much more desirable fate than being among those who perish in the coming holocaust and end up cast as corpses into the Valley of Hinnom. It would not be Jesus' object to insist that every person who ever ended up in gehenna was under God's curse or judgment, nor that every disobedient Jew would end up there.

Would it be better to die as a "Roman candle" than to perish among the wicked? In God's book, yes. Infinitely! There is no comparson being made between the respective levels of pain suffered in these two contingencies. It is better to die faithful (no matter how painfully), than to die as an enemy of God (no matter how comfortably). "The Valley of Hinnom" does not speak of "pain" (that has been the traditional association). It speaks of God's disfavor.

Would the average Jew know this? I think so. Even so, Jesus was not speaking to the average Jew, but to His disciples.