The Danger of Universalism

[Todd]

Hi Homer,

"Eternal consequences" would not only include the traditional view and annihilationism, but would also include the form of universalism that I would be most likely to embrace, if I were a universalist. The unbeliever at the time of death would experience the eternal loss of the privileges that Christians have been promised, the rewards of obedience, reigning with Christ, etc. Those are eternal consequences. Such eternal forfeiture might even result in weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Steve,

Your point that there is a difference in the status of individuals in the resurrection is supported in this verse.

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Todd

[Suzana]

Hi Homer,

"Eternal consequences" would not only include the traditional view and annihilationism, but would also include the form of universalism that I would be most likely to embrace, if I were a universalist. The unbeliever at the time of death would experience the eternal loss of the privileges that Christians have been promised, the rewards of obedience, reigning with Christ, etc. Those are eternal consequences. Such eternal forfeiture might even result in weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Steve,

Your point that there is a difference in the status of individuals in the resurrection is supported in this verse.

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Todd

Not that I wish to give any support to belief in eternal torment, but I would have understood this verse to mean that the "better resurrection" as stated here could have the meaning that having refused to be traitors and deny Jesus, they expected to be resurrected to life rather than the condemnation of judgement like the rest of the unbelievers.

[steve7150]

Steve,

Your point that there is a difference in the status of individuals in the resurrection is supported in this verse.

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Todd

Not that I wish to give any support to belief in eternal torment, but I would have understood this verse to mean that the "better resurrection" as stated here could have the meaning that having refused to be traitors and deny Jesus, they expected to be resurrected to life rather than the condemnation of judgement like the rest of the unbelievers.






The interesting point Suzana is that this phrase is used no where else and the contrast between a resurrection of life compared to judgment sounds to me like a greater contrast then one being simply a better resurrection then the other. So i think it sounds like it has to do with rewards being better for some then others IMHO.

[steve7150]

The problem for the Universalist is that they can not show that any punishment at all will be needed to bring about a confession of Jesus as Lord




Homer, One important factor that i think we all just forget about is that according to Paul , the devil BLINDS the minds of unbelievers. If salvation is possible after death then the minds of unbelievers will no longer be blinded by Satan and they will see the truth unencumbered. So this change alone may make a dramatic difference in the minds and hearts of unbelievers.
I for one would love to be a fly on the wall at this event.

[steve7150]

It's interesting Homer that a truly evil person can on their deathbed confess Jesus as their Lord and spend eternity in heaven with apparently no punishment ever for this person yet this scenerio does'nt trouble you.


The efficacy of the atonement of our Lord knows no limits




Yes Homer and this truth is what supports CU.

[steve7150]

I was just wondering what differences you understand there to be between "correction" and "punishment".

As I see it, one can be just as painful as the other. In studying the various views of punishment, we find that "correction" is one of three main views of "punishment". It is called "the reformatory or rehabilitation view" of punishment. Another is the "retributive theory" of punishment. That is the one I associate most with the word "punishment". A third is the "deterrance theory" of punishment.


Paidion, Your summary of punishment sounds complete so re correction i think the nature of it depends on the heart and intention of the unbeliever. If he is a searcher of the truth and once it is revealed to him he gladly accepts it, then gentle persuasion should be effective. However if he loves his paradigm more then the truth then i can only speculate that God may make him face his sin and the consequences resulting from this sin for himself and for countless others. Perhaps this correction would be going through the mental anguish of how his decisions undoubtedly negatively affected the lives of others. Is this a type of punishment or simply justice , God is the judge. Would there be other elements of correction, would the sinner have to pay for their sins in some way? Does God use physical torment or torture, I don't think this would be consistent with his charactor as revealed through Jesus. So i can't see any reason why God would'nt use punishment as a tool of teaching and persuasion as long as it falls within the boundary of justice in situations when it is necessary for transformation.
Now of course this is only speculation and leaves many unanswered questions which a believer in ET does not have since in that belief system everything is simple, 98% of humanity spends eternity in a hellhole, case closed.

[SteveF]

Hi Homer,

"Eternal consequences" would not only include the traditional view and annihilationism, but would also include the form of universalism that I would be most likely to embrace, if I were a universalist. The unbeliever at the time of death would experience the eternal loss of the privileges that Christians have been promised, the rewards of obedience, reigning with Christ, etc. Those are eternal consequences. Such eternal forfeiture might even result in weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Steve,

Your point that there is a difference in the status of individuals in the resurrection is supported in this verse.

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Todd

I actually think the "better" resurrection is being contrasted with the women who had their children brought back to life (raised from the dead). The future ressurection will be superior to being raised from the dead in this life (like Elijah and the widow's son for example I Kings 17). It think it might be paraphrased like this:

"Some women had their children resurrected (raised from the dead) in this world. Others were tortured and did not try to preserve their earthly life so they could partake in the better resurrection"

[Todd]

Hi Homer,

"Eternal consequences" would not only include the traditional view and annihilationism, but would also include the form of universalism that I would be most likely to embrace, if I were a universalist. The unbeliever at the time of death would experience the eternal loss of the privileges that Christians have been promised, the rewards of obedience, reigning with Christ, etc. Those are eternal consequences. Such eternal forfeiture might even result in weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Steve,

Your point that there is a difference in the status of individuals in the resurrection is supported in this verse.

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Todd

I actually think the "better" resurrection is being contrasted with the women who had their children brought back to life (raised from the dead). The future ressurection will be superior to being raised from the dead in this life (like Elijah and the widow's son for example I Kings 17). It think it might be paraphrased like this:

"Some women had their children resurrected (raised from the dead) in this world. Others were tortured and did not try to preserve their earthly life so they could partake in the better resurrection"

SteveF,

I think you are right about that. It makes perfect sense. It's like Lazarus who was raised from the dead but later died again. The resurrection to immortality will be far better.

Todd

[Paidion]

I also agree with SteveF's understanding.

In the Scriptures, anyone brought back to life was said to be "resurrected". But in cases such as Lazarus, who doubtless died again, it might better be termed "resuscitated". Those participating in "the better resurrection" will be immortal. Jesus was the FIRST to experience a resurrection of this type. He is called "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18, and in Romans 8:29, He is called "the firstborn among many brethren".

This solves the problem some have with the fact that others were brought back to life prior to Christ's resurrection. They think this fact contradicts the statements from the passages referenced above. But it's not a contradiction since no one was raised to immortality until Christ. That is why He is called "the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (I Corinthians 15:20)

[Jill]

I do not know what "universalism" is, but as for doctrines focused on "judgement, blame, and punishment, unto a greater fairness for all that have "efforted" far more than the ones to be punished", a life of continual repentance, reflection, and turning, would seem to remedy this very opposite and raging obsession quite nicely. Becoming proud of ones own "achievment in righteousness", and thus come to know the "unrighteousness of others" in having done so, could only reveal how SLOW one may have been to obey in the first place, unto remission. Thus goodness, now having become more normal, than the usual braggarts paradise upon the heads of those who do not yet have the scriptures nor the workings of God in them.


(edit: spelling)