My Case for eternal Hell

[Homer]

Hi steve7150,

You wrote:

This word "aionios" has traditionally been translated as "eternal" by the RCC and then by the KJV and then etched in stone by the subsequent translations.

The belief in everlasting punishment did not originate with the RCC or King James translation, but goes back as far as the earliest Christians, as the following quotations show. Aionios has been translated consistent with the historic belief. Note the words "for an endless duration", "punished unceasingly", "not merely temporal, but eternal", etc., which leave no doubt about mistranslation. You can easily see how they understood Jesus' words in Matthew 25:

150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).

150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).

150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire. (The Second Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)

150 AD Justin Martyr: assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)

150 AD Justin Martyr: And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)

150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)

155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).

160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; [/u]when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end[/u] those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).

181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).

197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3).

197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).

212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from

[steve7150]

The belief in everlasting punishment did not originate with the RCC or King James translation, but goes back as far as the earliest Christians, as the following quotations show. Aionios has been translated consistent with the historic belief. Note the words "for an endless duration", "punished unceasingly", "not merely temporal, but eternal", etc., which leave no doubt about mistranslation. You can easily see how they understood Jesus' words in Matthew 25:



OK good point Homer but Origen did'nt believe in eternal punishment and of the first 6 Christian churches i think only one believed in eternal punishment.
I think generally when Jesus made references like this he was alluding to something in the OT like Isa 66 or something in Jeremiah and no jewish scholars that i'm aware of believed in eternal hell.
As you know this was discussed ad-nauseam before and if we are going to do this again i'm going to have sneak a wireless laptop into Paidion's cell for support.

[Ambassador791]

Thank you for that , Homer.

The saved are specifically said by Paul to be given imperishable,incorruptable bodies but this description is never given to the unsaved therefore you are relying on the word"eternal" from your traditional bible translation.

This is a good point, and I did think of it.

But…

Paul may not be trying to make the point you think he is.

The description of the unjust as being immortal may not be given on account that it is naturally assumed (because of their world view): that bodies are not immortal (not imperishable), but the resurrected spirit is (so, Paul needs not explain this).

The world view of Paul and those reading is that: “man is appointed to die ONCE and after that the judgment” (Heb 9,27). It is more natural to assume that Paul knows that the reader of his letter would have the world view that if we are given bodies, we may NOT be immortal.

So, it is more likely that Paul believes that the resurrected soul is immortal (it has died its one, and only appointed time, as says Hebrews) and that (normally) any living body is not immortal. So, Paul explains that the resurrected body is imortal like the resurrected soul.

Do you believe Paul? Good because he said the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers therefore we do not have real freewill until after the devil is actually destroyed which is before sinners are in the lake of fire.
With regards to your point that if the devil blinds how is it that any are saved? I think the answer may be in the parable of the Sower and the Seed that if the ground is not soft the devil immediately steals the Word therefore your heart must be receptive.

John 16, 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilta in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me.

I take this to mean that the Spirit convicts the WORLD, and is at work, even where man is not.

Just as you have pointed out, not all man believes. You say that because of this, God MUST give man a chance to repent on the other side of death. But here, Jesus acknowledges that not all men believe, and then lets us know that this is where the Spirit comes in.

You might say that the “world” only means “land”, or that the Spirit only convicts when the word is spoken or read, but then you would have to say that the Spirit is bound by, location, mans lips and the printing press (I do not deny that these things play a roll, but Jesus has told us that there is much more going on).

The fact that ANYONE believes proves that man is not blinded beyond belief (no pun intended, man could believe if he wanted to), God is not far from any man.

You may say, but not all get the chance to hear the gospel. Middle knowledge may enter in here, so all man NOT hearing the gospel does not necessitate that God would be unjust in NOT saving after this life.

You have people that live in the bible belt of America, surrounded by churches, that never believe, and then there are testimonies of people from Darkest Africa, that knew of the Son of God that died for mankind, without ever hearing the name of Jesus.

What does this mean? The Gospel is not two dimensional. God´s message is not bound by the printing press, mans ability to read or Satan’s ability to PARTIALLY blind. God´s Spirit is moving beyond our sight to convict the WORLD of sin just as Jesus said he would.

[steve7150]

John 16, 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilta in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me.

I take this to mean that the Spirit convicts the WORLD, and is at work, even where man is not.

Just as you have pointed out, not all man believes. You say that because of this, God MUST give man a chance to repent on the other side of death. But here, Jesus acknowledges that not all men believe, and then lets us know that this is where the Spirit comes in.





I agree that John 16 says that the Spirit convicts the world of sin and that same Spirit convicts believers of righteousness BTW. So we both agree the world is in fact convicted of sin, that's why Jesus died for our sins and the sins of the world.
I don't believe God must give the unsaved a chance to repent in the LOF, but i think he will, but it's just my opinion based on the following set of facts,
God will is that everyone be saved
God's will is going to be done
Jesus prayed that God's will be done
The devil does blind the minds of unbelievers therefore freewill is a myth or a tradition, not biblical
God is righteous but he is also love and merciful
God will judge, and a man dies once and then the judgment, but judgment besides punishment can include restoration
Evil will be destroyed, not maintained forever.

[Homer]

Hi steve7150,

You wrote,

I don't believe God must give the unsaved a chance to repent in the LOF, but i think he will, but it's just my opinion based on the following set of facts,
God will is that everyone be saved
God's will is going to be done
Jesus prayed that God's will be done
The devil does blind the minds of unbelievers therefore freewill is a myth or a tradition, not biblical
God is righteous but he is also love and merciful
God will judge, and a man dies once and then the judgment, but judgment besides punishment can include restoration
Evil will be destroyed, not maintained forever.

I think your logic is flawed. You say that God's will is going to be done, and that it is His will that all will be saved. But isn't it His will that all should be saved now, yet they obviously are not? So God's will is not being done now, but is being thwarted. That is, unless God is more complex than you seem to think. If you consider that God might desire more than one thing at a time, even things that conflict with each other, then you can see that God might want all men to be saved while simultaneously desiring that they have free will.

That God is going to do something in the future might be true but it is not a fact.

May God bless you today!
Homer

[steve7150]

I think your logic is flawed. You say that God's will is going to be done, and that it is His will that all will be saved. But isn't it His will that all should be saved now, yet they obviously are not? So God's will is not being done now, but is being thwarted. That is, unless God is more complex than you seem to think. If you consider that God might desire more than one thing at a time, even things that conflict with each other, then you can see that God might want all men to be saved while simultaneously desiring that they have free will.


Hi Homer,

"Now" to my knowledge is not in scripture nor is time a big thing to God like it is to us. Jesus likewise is not called the "potential" Savior of the world but the Savior of the world.
So you can respond and say that "now" and "potential" are understood even though not stated and that's where we differ my friend. When Jesus prayed that God's will be done did he anticipate that it would be done "now" or at some future time? I don't know but i think he did expect his prayer would eventually be answered as he said his Father always hears his prayers. Lastly as i mentioned to Amb i disagree that we have freewill only that we have a will and for that we are accountable to God, but in this life it is far from free.

[Homer]

Hi steve7150,

So your position is that God wants all men to be saved eventually but that at the present time he either doesn't care one way or the other or He has rigged the game so they can't until after this life?

As I have long believed, universalism is as deterministic as Calvinism, only it operates in a different time frame and by a different method with a happier result.

[steve7150]

So your position is that God wants all men to be saved eventually but that at the present time he either doesn't care one way or the other or He has rigged the game so they can't until after this life?




We both know that God cares a great deal but the fact is that despite it is God's will that everyone be saved He still allows the devil to deceive people on a grand scale.
I could give you the stock answers like the devil is the tester, or the devil has a legal right because he got dominion of the earth by deceiving Eve but neither seem completely satisfactory.
So i'm content to trust God that there is a greater good reason and that we just don't know yet, but someday we will look through the glass clearly.

[Ambassador791]

Evil will be destroyed, not maintained forever.

Man is only capible of doing evil because he is expected and demanded to do good on earth. As I believe, in hell, man will be away from Gods presence, away from all good. Man may not even be able to conceive of a God or anything good. We can now because we live inn a good creation in which all points to a good God.

If there is no good to fall short of, does evil exist? If you play a game without rules, could someone accuse you of evil doing on account of rule breaking?

I believe that the sinner will be granted his free choice of a world void of God´s nature with no standards...this will be hell.

God will is that everyone be saved , God's will is going to be done

You are saying that if all does not go along with Gods perfect will, his will would not be done. This ignores the fact that God must have a permissive will too.
You seem to think that ONLY his perfect will is done, thus all men will be saved.

But…

You seem to get the part right about God wanting all men to be SAVED, but time and time again you miss that this is to happened through SALVATION from sin and that this IS God´s will.

Which do you prefer: you can have a man going to heaven after paying for sin but not SAVED from his sin, because he paid for all, not Jesus. Or, you can have Jesus only SAVING a man from sin, and not SAVING anyone that pays for their sin (because there is nothing for such a man to be saved from).

So, EVEN if you believe that God has a two dimensional will , where only his perfect will is done, he loses either way!

If all men go to heaven even if they pay for their own sin, all men are NOT SAVED (from sin through Jesus) and God´s perfect will of all men being SAVED is not done.
You can only deny this if you deny the meaning of “saved”.

What are they save from, and how are they saved from it, who are they saved through, how and when do they become saved. All that comes into play and is part of the recipe of Gods full (yet permissive) will being done.

[steve7150]

Man is only capible of doing evil because he is expected and demanded to do good on earth. As I believe, in hell, man will be away from Gods presence, away from all good. Man may not even be able to conceive of a God or anything good. We can now because we live inn a good creation in which all points to a good God.

If there is no good to fall short of, does evil exist? If you play a game without rules, could someone accuse you of evil doing on account of rule breaking?





Certainly evil exists in hell because sinners by their nature are evil (you being evil) as Jesus said therefore simply being out of God's will is evil and as long as God exists and man exists, evil can exist. However God said evil will be destroyed therefore eternal punishment can not by definition mean punishing going on forever. Either unbelievers are destroyed or restored or a combination of both. Even if (aionios) means eternal it still does not necessarily mean eternal punishing, it could mean the effects from perishing are eternal, no chance of another resurrection.
BTW re God's will, this phrase of God's perfect will is not meant to be extended to everything to the point it makes God's will almost meaningless. When Jesus prayed for God's will be done or God said his will, will be done i think it means what it says.