Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

The Apostles who were the closest one's to Jesus and knew what he meant when he spoke to the Pharisees about the eternal fire never preached eternal damnation which is more then strange if that's what Jesus really meant.
Also re John 5.29 unbelievers are raised to judgement (krisis) which is where the english word crisis comes from and it simply does not mean immediate conviction, it means a crisis which could mean a period of time where critical life affecting decisions have to be made.
Lastly as has been repeated here there really isn't an actual greek word in scripture that s/b translated as eternal but "aion" or "aionos" means age or age abiding or ages upon ages.
Check out what happens to unbelievers after they are thrown in the lake of fire and follow scripture to the end.

[Guest]

Lastly as has been repeated here there really isn't an actual greek word in scripture that s/b translated as eternal but "aion" or "aionos" means age or age abiding or ages upon ages.

No, and yes.

The Greek word "aidios" means "eternal". The word is found in two places in the New Testament. Here are the two places:

Romans 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

Jude 1:6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;

But you are correct in saying that "aionios" should never be translated as "eternal". I'm glad that "aidios", the true word for "eternal" is found in the New Testament. Some who maintain that "aionios" does mean "eternal", say that the word HAD to be used in Greek because Greek has no word for "eternal" as we understand the word today. But that is not the case.

At first reading, one might assume that the angels that did not maintain their position will be in eternal chains forever. But that is not what the text says. It says they will be in eternal chains UNTIL the judgment of the great day.

[Guest]

1 Thes 4:15-17
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Paul tells us what will happen to Christians when Jesus returns. What will happen to those who are not Christians? Peter has this to say...

2 Pet 3:3-10
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

When Christ returns all believers, both alive and dead, will be removed safely away, and everyone and everything that is left will be burned up. I believe that it may very well be that all the warnings in the scriptures that refer to fire and judgement may be referring to this one event when all unbelievers who are still alive at his coming will perish in the consuming flames which will melt the elements.

However, there will be a resurrection of the unjust (Acts 24:15) after having suffered his wrath. Perhaps they will all be converted just as quickly as Paul was when he saw the Lord. And then it can be truely said that "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54).

1 Cor 15:25-28
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Todd

[Guest]

You quoted:

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So after Jesus returns, he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. So it does not appear that there will be a quick conversion of the non-disciples as soon as they see Jesus.

Let's consider what Jesus will do with the non-disciples when He returns in His glory:

Matthew 25:31-33,41
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left....

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the aionios fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."

"aionios" ---- going from age to age

Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into aionios correction, but the righteous into aionios life."

Yes, the word should be translated "correction" not punishment.

The Greek noun is "kolasis" and the verbal form is "kolazO"

Lexicons give "kolazO" as originally meaning "to prune". It was used of pruning grape vines, etc. Then figuratively, it came to mean "correct".
Lexicons also give "correction" as one of the meaning of the noun "kolasis".

So it seems that when Christ returns, the non-disciples will still not submit to Him. It will take correction in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire --- correction which will last for ages, before they repent and submit to the authority of Christ.

[Guest]

Although many may be converted quickly IMO they still have to pay for their sins. As Jesus said to Judas "It would have been better for you if you had never been born." That does'nt sound like Judas is going to be avoiding pain.
And in Matthew 5.25-26 i believe Jesus is alluding to this for he would have no reason to talk about earthly prisons.
"Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way ,so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge (Jesus) and the judge to the officer,and you be thrown into prison. Truly i say to you , You will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent."
Note that Jesus started the last sentence with the word "truly" which meant he was saying something particularly important and IMHO alluding to the "lake of fire."

[Guest]

You quoted:

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

So after Jesus returns, he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. So it does not appear that there will be a quick conversion of the non-disciples as soon as they see Jesus.

Paidion,

Jesus is reigning now. He has just not yet subdued all of his enemies yet. See this verse in Hebrews.....

Heb 2:7-8
7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet? In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

So, since everything is not yet subject to him, he continues to reign waiting patiently for all of mankind to repent. However, at some point he will return, execute his wrath and subdue all the living unbelievers.

1 Cor 15:22-25
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

So, if the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, would it not be true that when the unjust are resurrected (destroying death) all other enemies must have already been destroyed and made subject to Christ?

Todd

[Guest]

It doesn't make sense to me that Jesus would raise to life again His enemies, only to destroy them again.

As I understand the scriptures, those who have not submitted to Him at His coming will be raised to life again ("after the thousand years have ended"), and will be corrected in Gehenna "for ages and ages". At some point each of them will, of his or her own free will submit.

Origen (185-255 A.D.), put it this way:

The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders will advance and reconcile themselves to God, those who once were enemies; and so at length the last enemy will be reached...

De Principiis III.vi.6

[Guest]

It doesn't make sense to me that Jesus would raise to life again His enemies, only to destroy them again.

Paidion,

That's not at all what I am saying. I agree with you that Christ would not raise the dead only to destroy them again. What I am saying that the destruction happens when Christ returns and all the elements are burned up. All unbelievers will be destroyed at his coming. They will perish as did all unbelievers before. When the unjust are resurrected they will be converted to Christ so that God may be all in all.

Todd

[Guest]

So Todd and Paidion it seems you agree except perhaps on the time of restitution or rehabilitation which scripture does'nt disclose and is up to Christ's perfect justice.

[Guest]

Is there a dime's worth of difference between these ideas and the Catholic belief about purgatory? Except the catholic position is not universalist?