1 Cor 15:25-28
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Here it says that Christ must reign until he has put "all enemies" under his feet. Everything will be subject to Christ. Now I will ask these questions: Is an unrepentent heart an enemy of Christ? Is a rebellious spirit an enemy of Christ? Will Christ reign until "all" will willing be subject to him?
Todd
Alternative Views of Hell
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_Father_of_five
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Well Todd, where i went to school the word "all" meant 100%. Regarding "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" the Lake of Fire is called the second death so i think that the second death has to be destroyed for God to be "all in all" and if God is in all then the kingdom of God is in all and all are in the kingdom of God. Now it could mean all who have ever lived or it could mean all who are left after the second death. It's similar to "every knee shall bow" is it all or all who are left?
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_Father_of_five
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Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Maybe we should look at this another way. Damon has suggested that the work of the Holy Spirit may be related to the Lake of Fire. I have already quoted John 16:8 which says that the Holy Spirit will "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." And we know that the Lake of Fire is the second death (Rev 20:14). Perhaps this is referring to the state of anyone who has not accepted Christ - they are in the Lake of Fire already - being reproved by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said,
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Paul said,
Col 2:11-13
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
So when we are "made alive in Christ" pehaps we come out of the Lake of Fire at that time - being no longer "dead in sin" (second death?).
Just a thought.
Todd
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Maybe we should look at this another way. Damon has suggested that the work of the Holy Spirit may be related to the Lake of Fire. I have already quoted John 16:8 which says that the Holy Spirit will "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." And we know that the Lake of Fire is the second death (Rev 20:14). Perhaps this is referring to the state of anyone who has not accepted Christ - they are in the Lake of Fire already - being reproved by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said,
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Paul said,
Col 2:11-13
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
So when we are "made alive in Christ" pehaps we come out of the Lake of Fire at that time - being no longer "dead in sin" (second death?).
Just a thought.
Todd
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Hi Todd. The difficulty with this interpretation is that we are not immersed in the lake of fire - or immersed in the Holy Spirit - prior to conversion. Rather, those who reject Christ are condemned to fearfully look forward to being immersed in the lake of fire (Heb. 10:27). So they can't be immersed in it yet.Father_of_five wrote:So when we are "made alive in Christ" pehaps we come out of the Lake of Fire at that time - being no longer "dead in sin" (second death?).
There is a slight connection, though, but it's very tenuous. The Holy Spirit not only gives one spiritual life at baptism and eternal life at the resurrection, it also gives one physical life at birth. More on this below. Therefore, symbolically speaking, the Holy Spirit has already immersed everyone in order to give them physical life -- but that's not exactly what's being talked about here, regarding the lake of fire.
When God created Adam and Eve, God breathed the "breath" of life into Adam's nostrils, and Adam became a "living, breathing creature." (Gen. 2:7; Job 34:14-15) The same Hebrew word translated "breath" also means "spirit." In other words, God gave Adam what is later referred to as the "spirit in man" (Job 32:8; Eccl. 3:21; etc.), and this is what gave Adam physical life.
We can see that this is identical with the Holy Spirit by looking at John 1:4-5 and 9. According to these verses, in Jesus is "life" and this "life" is "the light of men" which "lights every man coming into the world." What is it that "lights" or gives life to everyone coming into the world? The "spirit in man," as we've seen. Therefore, this "light" is identical with the "spirit in man." This is also the "light which shined in darkness" at Creation (Gen. 1:2-3). That very thing identifies this spirit as the Holy Spirit, which lit up like a star when the world was created. (And this is the same "star" which heralded Jesus' birth, by the way!)
Thus, there are a number of "birth" or "rebirth" parallels of water or fire in conjunction with the Holy Spirit:
An individual:
Birth - the watery amniotic fluid accompanied by the infant's first breath of life, given by the Holy Spirit. When a child is born, a child has natural love and trust for its parents - given by the Holy Spirit of Love (2 Tim. 1:7) - which is eroded over time by choice and by circumstances.
Baptism - baptism in water accompanied by the receiving of the Holy Spirit as the guarantee of eternal life with God. Baptism symbolically renews the love that one had as a child.
Resurrection - one is purged by the "fire" of the Holy Spirit which changes one's physical, mortal body into a spirit body (1 Cor. 15:35, 42-45, 51-52). Eternal life can only manifest for those who have enduring love in spite of great evil, wickedness, hatred and violence (Mat. 24:12-13).
The world:
Creation - the waters of Creation accompanied by the Holy Spirit which hovered overhead and lit up like a star (Gen. 1:2-3).
The Flood - the waters in heaven which were separated from the waters of earth at Creation (Gen. 1:6-8 ) "baptized" the earth. Only Noah, who had love - and those with him - were preserved from the destruction which was decreed because of the great hatred in the world which manifested as "violence" (Gen. 6:11-13). The Flood was accompanied by the covenant symbol of the rainbow (Gen. 9:8-17), which has the physical appearance of the glory of God (Eze. 1:28 ) which is the Holy Spirit.
The coming of the Father - when the Father comes, the whole of Creation will be immersed in the burning, purifying glory of God, which is the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 3:10-13). At that point, all of Creation will be changed from physical and subject to decay to eternal and incorruptible (Rom. 8:19-23), in the exact same way that the saints will be changed when Jesus comes.
Interesting, isn't it?
Damon
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_STEVE7150
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I think once we sin the just like Adam "we will surely die in this day" meaning we die a spiritual death and we lose the right to eternal life that God meant for us. However if most of the whole of creation is going to end up in eternal torment then Paul made an irrational statement that would make no sense.
"For i reckon that the suffering of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the CREATURE (that's us ) itself SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption into the glorious LIBERTY of the children of God." Romans 8.18-21
The creature which is mankind eagerly awaits for the manifestation of the Sons of God or the Saints who as Paul said will rule and reign and JUDGE THE WORLD. The only time or place they can judge the world is after this life and if all unbelievers were simply convicted to eternal hell when raised there is nothing to judge and no reason the creation would eagerly await the sons of God manifestation.
Notice Paul says the creature was made subject to vanity NOT WILLINGLY but by reason of him (GOD) who hath subjected the same in HOPE.
God subjected MAN to vanity not for punishment but in HOPE.
"For i reckon that the suffering of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the CREATURE (that's us ) itself SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption into the glorious LIBERTY of the children of God." Romans 8.18-21
The creature which is mankind eagerly awaits for the manifestation of the Sons of God or the Saints who as Paul said will rule and reign and JUDGE THE WORLD. The only time or place they can judge the world is after this life and if all unbelievers were simply convicted to eternal hell when raised there is nothing to judge and no reason the creation would eagerly await the sons of God manifestation.
Notice Paul says the creature was made subject to vanity NOT WILLINGLY but by reason of him (GOD) who hath subjected the same in HOPE.
God subjected MAN to vanity not for punishment but in HOPE.
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_Father_of_five
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John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus draws all men unto him through the work of his Holy Spirit as He "reproves the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment."
John 5:24
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Anyone who is not a believer in Christ is dead in his sins (the second death which is the lake of fire). When we turn to Christ we are no longer condemned but pass from death to life and we can enter into the Holy City through the gates that are never shut.
Rev 21:25-26
25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Heb 12:22-24
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Todd
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus draws all men unto him through the work of his Holy Spirit as He "reproves the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment."
John 5:24
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Anyone who is not a believer in Christ is dead in his sins (the second death which is the lake of fire). When we turn to Christ we are no longer condemned but pass from death to life and we can enter into the Holy City through the gates that are never shut.
Rev 21:25-26
25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Heb 12:22-24
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Todd
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Um, the KJV is good in some places but not in others. This is one of the more misleading translations that it has. Here's a better one:STEVE7150 wrote:However if most of the whole of creation is going to end up in eternal torment then Paul made an irrational statement that would make no sense.
[snip Rom. 8:18-21]
The creature which is mankind eagerly awaits for the manifestation of the Sons of God or the Saints who as Paul said will rule and reign and JUDGE THE WORLD.
"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. THE CREATION waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (NIV)
It's the whole of creation which was subject to "vanity" or worthlessness (here translated "frustration"), not just mankind. Why does the creation wait in expectation of the Sons of God being revealed? Because once the Sons of God are changed from flesh to spirit, it won't be long until the whole creation is changed from one that is subject to decay, to eternal. That's what this passage means. It has nothing to do with mankind as a whole being saved.
There are other passages which seem to imply a universal salvation - e.g., Jesus' statement that "I will draw all men to Me" - but this isn't one of them. And in any case, you need to put statements like those in context with the ones that talk about the "second death" and being tormented in the lake of fire.
Damon
PS. Here's another random but interesting tidbit. When Jesus begins the process of resurrecting all of the dead to stand before the throne of judgment, He'll begin with the last people to die, going backwards to the first who ever lived. (Mat. 19:29-30, 20:1, 8, 16) Like I'd mentioned elsewhere in another thread, it's as if history is reversing itself until we come back to Eden.
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Damon, Not to nitpick but mankind is part of creation and in fact is God's highest creation and mankind would be eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the Sons of God not trees or animals.
I'm not saying it's a pronouncement that mankind is saved but the inference is that mankind as a whole will benefit the manifestation of the Sons of God who will judge the world in righteousness.
After all God's judgement throne is a white judgement throne not a black one symbolizing torment.
I'm not saying it's a pronouncement that mankind is saved but the inference is that mankind as a whole will benefit the manifestation of the Sons of God who will judge the world in righteousness.
After all God's judgement throne is a white judgement throne not a black one symbolizing torment.
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Hi Steve.
Your reasoning is circular. That is, since man is God's highest creation, mankind must be what this passage is focusing on. Not necessarily true, and by no means proven!
As a counterexample, doesn't the bible anthropomorphize a lot? Why shouldn't this passage be just another example of the whole of Creation being anthropomorphized? For instance, where we read that all of Creation "groans and labors in pain" until the manifestation of the sons of God.
Can we prove it one way or the other? And if so, let's see that proof. What you've given is only supposition.
And your last sentence indicates that you've already made up your mind as to what the proper interpretation is, instead of letting the text speak for itself. I'm sorry, but I don't feel that we have anything to gain by continuing a one-sided debate.
Damon
Your reasoning is circular. That is, since man is God's highest creation, mankind must be what this passage is focusing on. Not necessarily true, and by no means proven!
As a counterexample, doesn't the bible anthropomorphize a lot? Why shouldn't this passage be just another example of the whole of Creation being anthropomorphized? For instance, where we read that all of Creation "groans and labors in pain" until the manifestation of the sons of God.
Can we prove it one way or the other? And if so, let's see that proof. What you've given is only supposition.
And your last sentence indicates that you've already made up your mind as to what the proper interpretation is, instead of letting the text speak for itself. I'm sorry, but I don't feel that we have anything to gain by continuing a one-sided debate.
Damon
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So our universalist friends would have us believe in a God who is the equivalent of those whan ran the inquisitions in medieval times. He tortures unbelievers to get them to profess love for Him, then takes them to heaven. Problem is, coerced love is no love at all. Universalism is an illusion based on a wish and is deficient in appreciation of the seriousness of sin and its deserved punishment. Apart from Jesus atonement for me, I have absolutely no hope of ever being with God.
So Paul had no concept of eternal punishment? Consider Romans 6:23 : "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord." Whatever this death is, it is the opposite of eternal life. Could it be physical death? No, even believers face physical death. How about spiritual death? No, unbelievers are already spiritually dead. It is the second death, eternal seperation from God, that is the opposite of eternal life!
Then again in Romans 9:22 Paul speaks of the "the objects of His wrath - prepared for destruction." Doesn't sound like Paul had correction in mind here does it? Sounds like the second death again.
The consider 2 Thess. !:9. What is this "they will be punished with everlasting destruction" for those who do not know God nor obey the gospel mean? I will be interested in how these scriptures are "spun".
Why does Jesus warn about going into hell, Mark 9:43 where the fire "never goes out", if the time there is only temporary? And how do you explain His warning about the "unforgivable sin" that would not be forgiven "in this age or in the age to come"? It is my belief that this sin is the final rejection of the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Christ, in effect calling God a liar. Regardless if I'm wrong about this, Jesus had in mind a real sin that could be commited and would never be forgiven.
It is posited that suffering in hell will soften the heart and bring about repentance. Didn"t seem to soften up Pharoah too much.
It has been claimed that Justin Martyr was a universalist. Consider this quote: "Christ foretold that Satan would be sent into the fire with his host, along with the men who follow him, and they will be punished for an endless duration. The Ante-nicene fathers, 1.172 Other similar quotations of Justin can be cited.
The idea presented that the sinner can pay for his sins in hell is an insult to the Messiah.
So Paul had no concept of eternal punishment? Consider Romans 6:23 : "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord." Whatever this death is, it is the opposite of eternal life. Could it be physical death? No, even believers face physical death. How about spiritual death? No, unbelievers are already spiritually dead. It is the second death, eternal seperation from God, that is the opposite of eternal life!
Then again in Romans 9:22 Paul speaks of the "the objects of His wrath - prepared for destruction." Doesn't sound like Paul had correction in mind here does it? Sounds like the second death again.
The consider 2 Thess. !:9. What is this "they will be punished with everlasting destruction" for those who do not know God nor obey the gospel mean? I will be interested in how these scriptures are "spun".
Why does Jesus warn about going into hell, Mark 9:43 where the fire "never goes out", if the time there is only temporary? And how do you explain His warning about the "unforgivable sin" that would not be forgiven "in this age or in the age to come"? It is my belief that this sin is the final rejection of the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Christ, in effect calling God a liar. Regardless if I'm wrong about this, Jesus had in mind a real sin that could be commited and would never be forgiven.
It is posited that suffering in hell will soften the heart and bring about repentance. Didn"t seem to soften up Pharoah too much.
It has been claimed that Justin Martyr was a universalist. Consider this quote: "Christ foretold that Satan would be sent into the fire with his host, along with the men who follow him, and they will be punished for an endless duration. The Ante-nicene fathers, 1.172 Other similar quotations of Justin can be cited.
The idea presented that the sinner can pay for his sins in hell is an insult to the Messiah.
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A Berean