Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

What is the diff between universalism and purgatory?

Thanks, Homer, for continuing to return and post scripture. I think universalism is very human-centered and denies Christ's work on the cross.

It's also a doctrine that is not about love, it's about fear.

[Guest]

No Homer not quite. No eternal torment may be an insult to you but it's not an insult to Christ. "Father forgive them because they know not what they do." Reading into Paul's statement "the wages of sin is death" means eternal separation or torment is a remarkable conclusion from those words. I admire your imagination Homer because that intrepertation would have never occurred to me. As far as i see it means the same thing that God said to Adam which is in the day he sins he will die because the wages of sin is death that is spiritual death and separation from God through the wages of sin.

[Guest]

Damon, Paul is speaking to humans not trees and animals and he is not speaking in a vague metaphoric way. He speaks specifically about issues so since "manifestation of the Sons of God" is about humans who will judge other humans the message has relevance to the rest of humanity other then those Sons of God. To me it's just the plain reading of the text not circular reasoning.

[Guest]

So our universalist friends would have us believe in a God who is the equivalent of those whan ran the inquisitions in medieval times. He tortures unbelievers to get them to profess love for Him, then takes them to heaven.

Homer, I have never heard or read any universalist say that, but according to most church teaching today God tortures the majority of mankind in hell for eternity. Most universalists that I have read say that hell is really a time of rememberance and correction - not torture at all.

You bring up many good points which need to be reconciled to "prove" universalism. There are scriptures which support both sides. It is the philosiphical arguments that make it worth considering. Here are a few.

1. Was Christ's sacrifice not sufficient to save the world?
2. If the majority of mankind will spend eternity in hell is Satan the greater victor for the souls of man?
3. Would a God who teaches us to love our enemies and forgive seventy times seven expect less from himself?
4. Didn't Christ destroy him who had the power of death? (Heb 2:14-15)
5. Why would God resurrect the sinner only to destroy him again? Would it not be better to let death have its final say?
6. Are those who lived and died, never hearing about Jesus, without hope?

No one can "pay" for his own sins by suffering in hell for a time. Christ is the only way, even in all the universalist writings I have read.

Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Todd

[Guest]

Damon, Paul is speaking to humans not trees and animals and he is not speaking in a vague metaphoric way. He speaks specifically about issues so since "manifestation of the Sons of God" is about humans who will judge other humans the message has relevance to the rest of humanity other then those Sons of God. To me it's just the plain reading of the text not circular reasoning.

Sorry, I don't see it that way. *shrugs*

I guess we disagree, then.

Damon

[Guest]

1. Was Christ's sacrifice not sufficient to save the world?
2. If the majority of mankind will spend eternity in hell is Satan the greater victor for the souls of man?
3. Would a God who teaches us to love our enemies and forgive seventy times seven expect less from himself?
4. Didn't Christ destroy him who had the power of death? (Heb 2:14-15)
5. Why would God resurrect the sinner only to destroy him again? Would it not be better to let death have its final say?
6. Are those who lived and died, never hearing about Jesus, without hope?

Here are my own thoughts on your questions.

1. Yes, but they must choose to accept it.
2. Who says that the majority of mankind will spend eternity in hell? Where did you get that idea?
3. Of course God would be even more forgiving than we are. But that doesn't mean that there can't come a point at which forgiveness doesn't accomplish anything. I honestly believe that some people are incorrigible, no matter how many times they are forgiven, given new chances, shown the error of their ways, etc.
4. What is "the power of death"? Sin. (1 Cor. 15:55-56) The "fear of death" - which isn't quite the same thing - leads to sin. Jesus destroyed the power of death by becoming our atoning sacrifice, but again, that doesn't mean that everyone will accept it. Jesus did not destroy the "fear of death," however. We still have that with us today, and it's just as powerful as ever. Nevertheless, we are enjoined to "not be afraid" many times in the Scriptures.
5. That's just the way that God chooses to do it. As I explained before, history is reversing itself and going all the way back to Eden. So everyone who ever lived and died will be raised back to life again, as part of this process. That's when they'll face judgment.
6. No they aren't. They are still held accountable for their actions, but only insofar as they understood what was right or wrong at the time. Nevertheless, to enter into eternal life (since the dead who are judged during the 1000 years are only resurrected to physical life), they must pass through the "door" of Jesus Christ, like everyone else.

No one can "pay" for his own sins by suffering in hell for a time. Christ is the only way, even in all the universalist writings I have read.

Being in the lake of fire has nothing to do with "paying" for one's sins in the first place. Also, people who end up being "tried by fire" in the Kingdom out of ignorance in this life (1 Cor. 3:11-15) might still be redeemed.

Damon

[Guest]

1. Yes, but they must choose to accept it.

So you are saying man's will trumps Christ's sacrifice?

2. Who says that the majority of mankind will spend eternity in hell? Where did you get that idea?

Matt 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Most chuches teach this as a proof text that only a very few of mankind will be saved.

3. Of course God would be even more forgiving than we are. But that doesn't mean that there can't come a point at which forgiveness doesn't accomplish anything. I honestly believe that some people are incorrigible, no matter how many times they are forgiven, given new chances, shown the error of their ways, etc.

I think the teaching of the "seventy times seven" is meant to show God's forgiveness is limitless.

4. What is "the power of death"? Sin. (1 Cor. 15:55-56) The "fear of death" - which isn't quite the same thing - leads to sin. Jesus destroyed the power of death by becoming our atoning sacrifice, but again, that doesn't mean that everyone will accept it. Jesus did not destroy the "fear of death," however. We still have that with us today, and it's just as powerful as ever. Nevertheless, we are enjoined to "not be afraid" many times in the Scriptures.

The scripture says that Jesus destroyed "him" who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. So Christ died to deliver everyone because everyone was subject to bondage.

5. That's just the way that God chooses to do it.

I'm not so sure at this point.

6. No they aren't. They are still held accountable for their actions, but only insofar as they understood what was right or wrong at the time.

Please provide your scriptural references to this.

Todd

[Guest]

So you are saying man's will trumps Christ's sacrifice?

Yup. Just look through the bible and see how many times man's free will limited what God was able to accomplish.

[snip Mat. 7:14]

Most chuches teach this as a proof text that only a very few of mankind will be saved.

Compare that with Numbers 14. Who was worthy of "life" in this passage? Most of the Israelites weren't, because they continued to refuse to trust in God. Nevertheless, look at passages like Isaiah 29:22-24. Here, we see an indication that Jacob's children - that is, the nation of Israel - won't be simply consigned to destruction because of their lack of faith. Rather, "those who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who complained will learn doctrine." This isn't talking about a future generation of Jacob's descendants who would have faith, but those very people who erred and complained - as they did when Moses led them out of Egypt.

Now, how will this happen? Their lives in this world are over, and they went to their graves without ever really trusting in God to save them. Therefore, God must have a way to straighten things out after they died!

That's why I believe that most people won't be consigned to destruction. Yes, in the absence of people like Moses (who was a type of Christ), they would be! But Moses "stood in the breach" (Psalm 106:23) so that God wouldn't destroy them.

I think the teaching of the "seventy times seven" is meant to show God's forgiveness is limitless.

I agree, but I don't think that does away with what I said.

The scripture says that Jesus destroyed "him" who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. So Christ died to deliver everyone because everyone was subject to bondage.

True, but what does it mean that the devil had "the power of death"? It means that he had the means to cause people to stumble and sin. But Christ died to atone for sin, and in the future He'll destroy Satan himself.

5. That's just the way that God chooses to do it.

I'm not so sure at this point.

*shrugs* Okay.

Please provide your scriptural references to this.

Num. 15:22-26, John 9:39-41, Acts 17:29-30, Romans 5:13 and 11:25-32, among others.

Damon

[Guest]

"Yup. Just look through the bible and see how many times man's free will limited what God was able to accomplish. "

Wow!

Kinda makes man into God. So you are saying God is not all those omni-qualities? Then why pray for God's will to be done?

Maybe instead of praying for God's will to be done, we need to plead and plead with people....after all, it's people's will that triumphs according to the above statement.

[Guest]

Hi JJB.

Read Numbers 14:6-21 and tell me what you think. Did the Israelites thwart the will of God in the short term, then? Did they thwart it in the long term? What did God say about what He would accomplish in the long term?

Damon