Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

Jesus only prayed for things that were God's will so since he prayed for God's will to be done and his kingdom come then these things will happen. But God ceased from his creative process on the 7th day of creation and we are still in that 7th day IMHO so for now he allows man's will to be done until such time that the 7th day ends. Then Jesus returns and the party is over and everyone is resurrected and judged. At this point whether man exercises freewill or not is up to God's mercy and how you interpret the verses after unbelievers are in the lake of fire.

[Guest]

"The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,and will cut him in pieces ,and ASSIGN HIM A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS"

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will will receive many lashes."
"But the one who did not know it and committed deeds worthy of a flogging will receive BUT FEW." Luke 12.46-48
Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. Whatever the judgement typified by the "stripes" it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few,so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. Even the maximum stripes are described as many stripes and not eternal stripes so even this has an end.
Being assigned a place with unbelievers ,where is that? The lake of fire.

[Guest]

Damon,
In the numbers passage what I see is apostasy and rebellion. Once again the Lord is having to punish people. Just as in Noah's case there was one righteous one, Caleb, whom the Lord blessed for his obedience and love of walking with the Lord.

Pslam 95:7-11, 1 Cor 10:5, Hebrews 3:12-4:13

I do not see an example of man thwarting God's will. How is it you see that in that passage? Perhaps we should take this to another thread, as this is not dealing with alternative views of hell.

[Guest]

In another thread Todd had asked "What is the seond death?" At first i thought it was the Lake of Fire but it's really not. In Rev 20.14 God tells us exactly what it is. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH." You can reverse this statement and it's a little clearer "The second death is DEATH AND HELL cast into the lake of fire."
Therefore the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH and since "the wages of sin is death" it's also the death of sin. Thus death,hell and sin are destroyed completing what Paul said "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Cor 15.26
It takes death to destroy death and thus Christ did taste death for every man" that through death,he might destroy him that had the power of death,that is the devil,and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Heb 2.9,15-15 .
Behold ,I make ALL THINGS new,And he said unto me ,write for these words are true and faithful." Rev 21.3-5

[Guest]

Now another text: "Him that cometh to me, [mark the promises are nearly always to the coming ones] I will in no wise cast out." Every man that comes shall find the door of Christ's house opened—and the door of his heart too. Every man that comes—I say it in the broadest sense—shall find that Christ has mercy for him. The greatest absurdity in the world is to want to have a wider gospel than that recorded in Scripture. I preach that every man who believes shall be saved—that every man who comes shall find mercy. People ask me, "But suppose a man should come who was not chosen, would he be saved?" You go and suppose nonsense and I am not going to give you an answer. If a man is not chosen he will never come. When he does come it is a sure proof that he was chosen. Says one, "Suppose any one should go to Christ who had not been called of the Spirit." Stop, my brother, that is a supposition thou hast no right to make, for such a thing cannot happen; you only say it to entangle me, and you will not do that just yet. I say every man who comes to Christ shall be saved. I can say that as a Calvinist, or as a hyper-Calvinist, as plainly as you can say it. I have no narrower gospel than you have; only my gospel is on a solid foundation, whereas yours is built upon nothing but sand and rottenness. "Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him." "But," says one, "suppose all the world should come, would Christ receive them?" Certainly, if all came; but then they won't come. I tell you all that come—aye, if they were as bad as devils, Christ would receive them; if they had all sin and filthiness running into their hearts as into a common sewer for the whole world, Christ would receive them. Another says, "I want to know about the rest of the people. May I go out and tell them—Jesus Christ died for every one of you? May I say—there is righteousness for everyone of you, there is life for every one of you?" No; you may not. You may say—there is life for every man that comes. But if you say there is life for one of those that do not believe, you utter a dangerous lie. If you tell them Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a wilful falsehood.


from here for the full sermon: http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0052.htm

[Guest]

I do not see an example of man thwarting God's will. How is it you see that in that passage? Perhaps we should take this to another thread, as this is not dealing with alternative views of hell.

Well, let me just briefly address it here, because there is a connection. If we need to discuss it further, then let's move it to another thread.

God wanted to bring all Israel into the Promised Land at that time. But ten of the spies brought back an evil report and the people refused to trust that God could bring them in anyway, no matter how difficult it might have seemed. So, they thwarted God's will (to bring them into the Promised Land) in the short term. Nevertheless, God still brought the next generation of Israelites into the land 38 years later.

This connects with the various views of Hell because of the analogy in Hebrews 3:7-4:11. The Promised Land is the Kingdom of God. The "rest" is not having to struggle day by day to meet one's outward as well as inward needs. This is achieved in actuality in the Kingdom, when we no longer have to work in order to live, and when we no longer have to worry about loving and being loved. This is achieved in type in the Body of Christ, when we no longer have to doubt that God will provide for our needs, even when circumstances look very difficult (as with the Israelites who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years; who fed them during that time?), and when we learn to love one another even in our weaknesses and struggles, just as Christ loved us.

One who can't love and trust, cannot enter into God's "rest". But nevertheless, God will still have mercy on them, and that was what I was getting at when I quoted Isaiah 29:22-24.

However, one who not only can't love and trust but rejects God entirely, knowing full well what they are rejecting (see Heb. 6:4-8 ), not only can't enter God's "rest" but are condemned to hell fire.

I hope that's a sufficient answer to your statement regarding Christ's sacrifice, and my reply that one must still accept it first.

Damon

[Guest]

Will God's will be done?

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Todd

[Guest]

Luke 2:9-11
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

The angel said the great joy shall be to all people. How can that be if most will suffer eternity in hell?

Todd

[Guest]

"Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him."

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Todd

[Guest]

So the universalist would have us believe that all will be saved. It is asserted that the scripture "every knee shall bow and evey tongue confess that Jesus is Lord" is a guarantee that all must be saved because this confession can not be made except "by the Holy Spirit", and anyone who has the Holy Spirit is a justified person. Did it ever occur to you that confession by the Holy Spirit might be a reference to during this life only?

Paul asserts that we are justified by faith, or faithfullness (in the greek pistis can mean either as it obviously does in Romans 3:3). Saving faith is an ongoing thing, not an event. In John 3:16, believes is in the present tense in the greek, meaning an action that is continuous or done repeatedly.

My view of the passage regarding the universal confession of Jesus as Lord is that this will occur at Judgement day (John 5: 28-29). I believe that the reaction of the lost (unbelievers) will be like that of Paul on the road to Damascus and John in Revalation 1:17! Their being on their knees and confessing will be an altogether involuntary thing. And how is this confession to be regarded as saving (or justifying) faith in any sense?
Preposterous!

But let's say my picture is wrong. The lost are so hardened that they fail to confess when faced with Jesus and are cast into hell or outer darkness, whichever you prefer to understand as their destination. So you believe that after a long, long time it will finally dawn on them that Jesus, who put them there, is Lord! How dumb can they be? Wouldn't it have been obvious all along? And so they finally admit that Jesus is Lord, who, as in the inquisitions, tortured it out of them. And this is saving faith? Again preposterous!

In either scenario the confession is not by faith but by sight! Hebrews 1:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for". The confession is too late.

I must say I believe there may be those on judgement day who will be saved although they never heard the gospel. The justified will be saved, beyond that God may have mercy. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy".

I will rejoice at whoever God saves; whoever it is will be fine with me. I assure you there are those I love, relatives, that I will be very glad if I'm wrong about this!