The Second Death

[Guest]

I would not think that there is anything left of those in the lake of fire. They "perish", are "destroyed", "consumed", "die", etc. I don't see how scripture warrants thinking otherwise (aside from perhaps, it's silence on certain particulars).

Scripture may warrant it because it is the fire itself that is necessary for salvation and it is the brimstone itself that may purify unrighteousness.



In 1 Cor 3 "EVERY MAN'S WORK" will be revealed by FIRE and the fire shall try every man's work.
"But he himself shall be saved , yet so as by fire." 1 Cor 3.13-15
Here Paul is speaking to fellow believers but the principal is that fire reveals and tests our works.
The very same fire "pur" is in the lake of fire where every man is judged by his works except the difference is that there is an additional ingredient which is brimstone. Brimstone is sulfer and sulfer is a purifying agent.
Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death therefore at some point the lake of fire which i think is the second death will be destroyed.
So the question is can anyone emerge from it purified? I think there are strong allusions that it is possible starting with Rev 22.17 where the Spirit and Bride invite whosoever to drink from the water of life.

[Guest]

The following passage has been brought up in the discussion and misapplied IMO:

1 Corinthians 3:5-17 (New King James Version)

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Paul is speaking of ministers who are building the Church. He uses as an illustration two metaphors in the passage, the church as a field of plants, and the church as a building. Each of the husbandmen (or builders) will receive their reward based on the quality of their work (true or false converts). They need to be careful how they build, Jesus is the foundation of the Church, not Paul, Apollos, or Benny Hinn .

In the end, each man's work (plants or building materials = converts, true or false) will be tested. The false converts will be destroyed while the well meaning but ineffective builder will be saved although his reward will be lost.

This passage is a favorite of the OSAS and is also (mis)used by them.

Got no dog in this fight, just interested in the discussion and finding the truth.

[Guest]

Homer,

I would see more in view than just whether the "building materials" are true converts.

I would think that anyone who is attempting to help build God's house, whether it be trying to convert an unbeliever, or someone discipling an already converted person, or someone just lending a helping hand to a co-worker, all are "builders". I would think that all these works are going to be tested. Do you not think so?

And it appears from this passage that not only are the building materials tested, but also the builders, since they are saved "yet so as through fire".


Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

This passage is a favorite of the OSAS and is also (mis)used by them.

Got no dog in this fight, just interested in the discussion and finding the truth.


You got no dog in the fight? Really.


1 Cor 3 is just an example of believers works being tested by fire but the principal is there for any believer's works.

"Beloved think it not strange the FIERY TRIAL which is to try you" 1 Peter 4.12
"For everyone shall be salted with fire" Mark 9.49
And what did John say Jesus would baptize us with?

So what might this fire actually be?
"For our God is a consuming FIRE" Heb 12.29

[Guest]

...No, I just said that you wouldn't agree that Rev. 20 is speaking of the physical resurection.....

You also, if memory serves, think that the lake of fire is also something that takes place before the resurection,...

... Feel free to clarify.

Hi Derek,

You are correct on both. I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding your opening post.

I think that there are 2 resurrections. Spiritual (Jn. 5:24; Eph 2:5-6; Col 2:13 1 Jn 3:14) which takes place when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, through coming to faith in Christ.

Physical: (Jn 5:28-29; Acts 24:14-15) This will happen on the "last day"; (Jn. 6: 40, 44, 54; 12:48 ).

I think that there are 2 deaths. Spiritual (this is the state that we are in prior to coming to Christ); (Eph 2:1,5; 5:14; 1Jn 3:14)

That the second death is a physical destruction of both body and soul, is admittingly, a lillte harder to prove, due to the "Greek word x could mean a instead of b, so no matter what all of the translations say, you can't be right" methodology. But I think there is some scriptural support for this as well.

Do you believe that the first resurrection is spiritual and the second resurrection is physical? If so, I agree.

Do you believe that the first death is spiritual and the second death is physical? This one is a little harder to pick out of your statement unless you think there are three deaths, i.e., (1) spritual death, (2) death at the end of this life, (3) death for the unbelievers after the resurrection. Is this what you mean?

Todd

[Guest]

Paul is speaking of ministers who are building the Church. He uses as an illustration two metaphors in the passage, the church as a field of plants, and the church as a building. Each of the husbandmen (or builders) will receive their reward based on the quality of their work (true or false converts). They need to be careful how they build, Jesus is the foundation of the Church, not Paul, Apollos, or Benny Hinn .

In the end, each man's work (plants or building materials = converts, true or false) will be tested. The false converts will be destroyed while the well meaning but ineffective builder will be saved although his reward will be lost.

Homer,

I agree with this interpretation. I discovered this years ago. A key verse that can help with this understanding is...

1 Cor 1:9
Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

However, I would like to mention that it says that some of the work will be burned, not destroyed. This doesn't necessarily mean ET or CI, IMO.

Todd

[_Derek]

Todd,

Do you believe that the first resurrection is spiritual and the second resurrection is physical? If so, I agree.

Yes.

Do you believe that the first death is spiritual and the second death is physical? This one is a little harder to pick out of your statement unless you think there are three deaths, i.e., (1) spritual death, (2) death at the end of this life, (3) death for the unbelievers after the resurrection. Is this what you mean?

Good question. I didn't even think about it. I guess I didn't take into account our death at the end of our lives, since that is temporary for both the wicked and the justified. Some will not even face this death, since some will be alive when Christ returns. I need to think about how that fits my view, and get back to you tomorrow. I gotta sleep tonight!


Everyone,

So is the Universalist position that the second death (remember the topic) is the "purifying process" which takes place in the lake of fire? If so, why is the word "death" used?

I would also be interested to know what those that hold the eternal torment view think about the second death, (i.e. the threads topic!), and why the eternally sustained existence of individuals, (something that sounds a lot like "living"), in hell, is called "death".

I realize that people are said to be "dead" while walking around on the earth, but I would say that this is spiritually dead (the first death), which in the end is "as good as dead" in the physical, eternal sense (i.e. leads to the second death).

God bless,

[Guest]

So is the Universalist position that the second death (remember the topic) is the "purifying process" which takes place in the lake of fire? If so, why is the word "death" used?



Sin and evil are put to death.

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

I'm not a CU so I feel my comment might be out of place here. But from your question, it occurs to me that scripture sometimes talks about the analogy of dying in order to live:

Rom 6:1-14
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV

Also....

1 Cor 15:35-37
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
NKJV


Also....

Gal 2:19-21
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
NKJV


Again, I'm not a CU, just playing devil's advocate (just joking CU's, I couldn't resist )

I don't know that it makes the CU case, but the analogy of dying to something in order to live to something better is certainly there.

Lord bless.

[Guest]

The first Adam brought us the first death. Death to God, death to righteousness. The second Adam reverses the effects of the first Adam, bringing death to sin (and its bondage and corruption) and ultimately death to death itself. (Rom. 5, 1 Cor. 15)

We, as followers of Christ, are to consider ourselves (already, but not yet) dead to sin, and alive to God and righteousness. (Rom. 6:11) We are to deny ourselves, pick up our cross (place of death), and follow Jesus. Those who do this inherit the kingdom (joint heirs with Christ), and are said to be a kingdom of priests (reign over who? priests for whom?)

The Lake of Fire is said to be the second death, and it is also depicted as the place where death is destroyed. (Rev. 20:14)

Derek, you asked why, if it is a purification process, would it be called a death. Christians are commanded to crucify our flesh, with its passions and desires. What should it be called when this process happens (unwillingly - at least at first) to those who have not already done this?

Blessings,
Mike