Calvinism and Universalism

[steve]

Hi Paidion,

If Jesus had just said to Peter, "Peter, you feel very loyal to me at the moment, but I predict that you will find your loyalty to be tested beyond your limits, and that you will, given the right circumstances, even deny that you know me," then I might interpret the situation as you do, that "He knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart...So He is in a MUCH better position to predict the future than we."

However, there was great precision in Jesus' actual words—"three times," and "before the cock crows twice." In fact, Jesus prefaced His words with the strong, "Amen [assuredly] I say to you..." It did not seem to allow for any guesswork or assessment of probabilities on Jesus' part.

Then you have the prediction concerning the decree of Cyrus (calling him by name), uttered 150 years before his birth, in Isaiah 44 and 45. Or take the elaborate and detailed prophecies in Daniel 11, about the "king of the north" and the "king of the south"—in which the precise movements, political and moral decisions of a series of Seleucid and Ptolemaic kings are spelled out at least 300 years before their fulfillments.

Were these predictions reliable ("true"), or were they simply God's best guess from the evidence at hand several hundred years before these people were born? How did God know that these folks would behave in these ways, before they were born? And did His knowing these things mean that they had no free will in carrying out what He foreknew? There is mystery here, and I don't think we do well to try to remove it by speculating about the limitations of divine omnipotence—nor in assuming that our particular philosophical grasp of what "time" is, or how it works, is accurate.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[RND]

That's an excellent point Steve.

Did all these things happen because God "knew" these things would happen or did all these things happen because God "had a hand" in them happening?

Did God simply know that Cyrus would serve Him or did God cause Cyrus to serve Him? How we answer these questions I think has a tremendous impact on the multitude of things we believe about God, His government, His grace and mercy, His willingness and His desire to forgive.

[Paidion]

Steve and RND, you guys are FAST! You posted before I had even finished editing mine!

[RND]

Steve and RND, you guys are FAST! You posted before I had even finished editing mine!

Are we fast or are you just...sssssssssssslllllllllllllooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwww!

[steve7150]

Did God simply know that Cyrus would serve Him or did God cause Cyrus to serve Him? How we answer these questions I think has a tremendous impact on the multitude of things we believe about God, His government, His grace and mercy, His willingness and His desire to forgive.





In either case where is Cyrus's free will because in both examples Cyrus was not free to do anything else. It's true that it may not be a salvation issue precisely but i'm not sure free will can be limited to a singular issue like salvation.

[RND]

Did God simply know that Cyrus would serve Him or did God cause Cyrus to serve Him? How we answer these questions I think has a tremendous impact on the multitude of things we believe about God, His government, His grace and mercy, His willingness and His desire to forgive.

In either case where is Cyrus's free will because in both examples Cyrus was not free to do anything else.

Sure he was! God knowing in advance what anyone will do doesn't hinder free will. The only way free will could be hindered would be if God was pulling the strings.

Is it possible I might know what will happen if I put my child on a bike and take the training wheels off?

It's true that it may not be a salvation issue precisely but i'm not sure free will can be limited to a singular issue like salvation.

I don't know of any free will proponents that limit free will to just salvation. Jesus knocks. Someone has to either answer the door or ignore the knocking.

[NJchosen]

Steve7150,

You said, "There is nothing in scripture warning us to stop and go no further is there? In fact Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures."

I didn't mean it like that. I meant it in the sense that people begin to make this their main thing of study and become consumed by it and set aside all else. Or begin to read into texts to make them say something else, which is not there to fit their views, and more.

NJchosen

[Paidion]

If Jesus had just said to Peter, "Peter, you feel very loyal to me at the moment, but I predict that you will find your loyalty to be tested beyond your limits, and that you will, given the right circumstances, even deny that you know me," then I might interpret the situation as you do, that "He knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart...So He is in a MUCH better position to predict the future than we."

Usually people don’t express their predictions by prefixing them with the words “I predict that”. In our day, I might say, “I predict that my wife will go online tomorrow.” But a more usual way of expressing that prediction is to use the metastatement, “My wife will go online tomorrow.” This is, of course, the case in the days of Jesus. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find a person prefixing his prediction with “I predict”. Indeed the words “predict” or “predicted” are not found at all in most translations, in spite of GWV the authors of whom seem to like the word, and who translated words as “predict” or “predicted” 45 times! Some translators are using the word where others use a different word. For example in 2 Kings 23:16, the ESV renders Strong’s 07121 as “predicted” while the NASB renders it as the more likely “proclaimed”.

In the New Testament, I have found only one word which, in my opinion could legitimately be translated as “predict”, and it is found in only one place:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. I Peter 1:10,11 ESV

It is a word which literally means “testified beforehand”. However, even this may not be understood by all to mean “predict” but rather testifying before hand what is already KNOWN.

So it would be most unusual, indeed, if Jesus had prefixed His predictions with the words “I predict” or “God predicts through me”.

However, there was great precision in Jesus' actual words—"three times," and "before the cock crows twice." In fact, Jesus prefaced His words with the strong, "Amen [assuredly] I say to you..." It did not seem to allow for any guesswork or assessment of probabilities on Jesus' part.

I am not so sure about the precision of Jesus’ actual words. There seems to be an inconsistency in the accounts. Only Mark has “before the cock crows twice”. Mathew and Luke have only “before the cock crows”. The gospels were written from the memory of the apostles about 30 years after the events occurred, and it seems that Peter’s memory of it as he related it to Mark, differed slightly from Matthew’s memory of it, or what Paul knew of it when he related it to Luke. Probably Matthew and especially Peter remembered that he, Peter, had denied the Lord three times, and perhaps because of this memory, they “remembered” that Jesus had said this in his prediction. Perhaps Jesus had actually said, “Before the cock crows, you will deny me.” Jesus, having the knowledge of Peter’s personality, his impetuousness, his susceptibility to social pressure, etc., would have a firm basis for making such a prediction.

I realize my explanation is no explanation for those who hold to a theory of inspiration which precludes the possibility of anyone’s false memories getting into the text, or there being any textual error of any kind. Yet anyone who has ever tried to reconcile the gospel accounts as a whole will be aware of the impossibility of such a task. Besides, it is quite clear that God has allowed factual errors to appear in the Bible, even in the early manuscripts.

Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel” Matthew 27:9

The words are nowhere found in Jeremiah, but similar words are found in Zechariah 11:13.

If it’s a matter of setting forth passages in which God’s predictions became reality against those in which they didn’t, you’ve got me beat by a long shot. But that, as you know, is not the issue. The issue is whether God knows the future, and this entails that there exists some logical statements about the future. Bringing forth examples in which predictions became reality do nothing to prove that. However, the fact that there are some predictions which did not become reality, do prove that God does not know everything in advance.

On the other hand, looking at the examples you gave, I suppose they were meant to indicate the impossibility of them being predictions rather than expression of God’s foreknowledge. But that doesn’t seem to cut it. For if there are some things that God does not know beforehand, as in the examples I gave, that would suggest that He is not omniscient, and none of us are willing to grant that. However, if what appear to be statements about the future, are in reality metastatements with no truth value, then there is no limiting factor on God’s knowledge.

Then you have the prediction concerning the decree of Cyrus (calling him by name), uttered 150 years before his birth, in Isaiah 44 and 45.

This prophecy even to the detail of calling Cyrus by name 150 years before he was born, would indeed indicate foreknowledge on God’s part which could not be explained as merely prediction. So I have begun to investigate the matter.

First I looked at the text itself:

Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
“I will go before you
and level the exalted places,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me. Isaiah 45:1-4

The first thing that strikes me as odd is Yahweh talking to Cyrus as if he exists, not as to someone who won’t exist until 150 years later. “You do not know me”. I should say he does not know Yahweh! He does not know anything. He does not exist! Or does he? I wondered whether Cyrus, Yahweh’s anointed might be a different Cyrus from Cyrus the King of Persia. But I don’t know enough about the latter yet to know how closely the prophecy in Isaiah corresponds to what he did. I am still investigating.

I also discovered that some people claim that someone other than the ancient Isaiah wrote chapters 40 and subsequent chapters, someone who lived in the days of Cyrus, King of Persia. I am still investigating.

Or take the elaborate and detailed prophecies in Daniel 11, about the "king of the north" and the "king of the south"—in which the precise movements, political and moral decisions of a series of Seleucid and Ptolemaic kings are spelled out at least 300 years before their fulfilments.

You will not be surprised, I am sure to find that I consider these things as yet to be fulfilled. After all, in the same context, Chapter 12:1,2 speaks of the tribulation period and of the resurrection:

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Were these predictions reliable ("true"), or were they simply God's best guess from the evidence at hand several hundred years before these people were born?

Steve, I am surprised that you, whom I respect so highly, would stoop so low as to imply that my position requires God’s “best guess”. This seems to have been a tactic to minimize what I have expressed as not worthy of being taken seriously.

You know and I know that guesses have no foundation in knowledge but are random selections, whereas predictions do have their foundation in knowledge. People guess what number will come up when you throw a die. People predict that a comet will appear in the sky to the naked eye, based on knowledge of the present position of the comet, and of correct mathematical calculations as well as past astronomical observations.

How did God know that these folks would behave in these ways, before they were born?

I must affirm that He didn’t know and that He couldn’t know. This stance is much easier to accept than the acceptance of contradiction.

And did His knowing these things mean that they had no free will in carrying out what He foreknew?

Knowing or not knowing something has no relation free will. However, the stance that what appear to be statements about the future have present truth value, contradicts free will.

There is mystery here…

I don’t thinks there’s mystery at all, except for those who feel they must believe in contradictions.

…and I don't think we do well to try to remove it by speculating about the limitations of divine omnipotence—nor in assuming that our particular philosophical grasp of what "time" is, or how it works, is accurate.

If you think I am merely speculating and assuming, then I leave it with you to think further about that very thing.

[steve]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Steve, I am surprised that you, whom I respect so highly, would stoop so low as to imply that my position requires God’s “best guess”. This seems to have been a tactic to minimize what I have expressed as not worthy of being taken seriously.

My apologies. I was not aware of misrepresenting your position. I guess I don't find your position easy to understand. If you say that your wife will be on the computer tomorrow, I would understand that statement to be your best guess based on your knowledge of her habits. Perhaps we understand the word "guess" differently. In any case, I thought such a statement about your wife was being presented as a parallel to Jesus saying what He said about Peter. I don't really understand your position.

[Paidion]

Steve if for you, "guess" is a synonym for "predict" and if you were not portraying my position as ridiculous by implying that God merely makes good guesses about the future, then there is nothing for which to apologize (in the modern sense of the word). In that case, I regret that I misunderstood you.

But I must say that I have never encountered the word "guess" as a synonym for "predict". If you asked an astronomer when Halley's comet will become visible from earth, it would seem quite appropriate to receive the answer, "We predict that it will next appear in 2061." It would seem strange indeed to hear, "Well, we are guessing that it will appear in 2061." A guess is little more than a thought, based on little or no information. A prediction is based on a substantial amount of knowledge. But the astronomer doesn't KNOW Halley's comet will appear in 2061. For some unusual astronomical phenomena may occur which would cause the comet to explode before 2061.

If you say that your wife will be on the computer tomorrow, I would understand that statement to be your best guess based on your knowledge of her habits.

It's so much more than a guess, best or otherwise. Since it's based on my knowledge of her habits, it's a prediction.

In any case, I thought such a statement about your wife was being presented as a parallel to Jesus saying what He said about Peter. I don't really understand your position.

You thought correctly. It is a parallel in the sense that both are predictions. Yet there is a great difference. The difference is that Jesus had much more information about Peter (He knew what was in man --- John 2:25) than I have about my wife. Therefore his prediction was much more likely to become reality.