The Danger of Universalism

[Suzana]

Heb 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I actually think the "better" resurrection is being contrasted with the women who had their children brought back to life (raised from the dead). The future ressurection will be superior to being raised from the dead in this life (like Elijah and the widow's son for example I Kings 17).

Now it's pointed out, it does make perfect sense; and it's all in the same passage!

It's interesting how our perceptions differ at times - like those optical illusions, where one person first sees the 'black' image, & another one sees the 'white' side.

In the Scriptures, anyone brought back to life was said to be "resurrected". But in cases such as Lazarus, who doubtless died again, it might better be termed "resuscitated".

I don't think that would work. Medically speaking, there's a point where the body undergoes certain organic changes & where ordinary cardio-pulmonary resuscitation would be ineffective without supernatural intervention. So to use 'resuscitation' in the case of Lazarus might imply he wasn't really 'dead' dead, & beyond medical help.

[Jill]

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[steve7150]

Homer, If you are still out there what would you think of a man who loyally follows Christ for 50 years and made many sacrifices for Christ over his life. However in his last year of life his wife and only two children and 3 grandchildren die in an auto accident and are burned beyond recognition. He is completely despondent but still sane and can't get past the pain so much so that he loses his faith in God in his last few months of life and then dies because of a broken heart.
His spirit his raised up to meet the Lord and he is told that thankfully his whole family is in heaven. He is relieved because one of his kids was not a believer but he confessed Jesus as his Lord during the accident. Unfortunately this man lost his faith in the last few months of his life because of the horrific tragedy and the Lord tells him that he must spend eternity in hell separated from the Lord and from his loved ones , for the Lord says that it's not that He wants to send this man to hell , it's because this man chose to go to hell.
According to your belief system Homer justice is served, any second thoughts?

[Homer]

Hi Steve7150!

I haven't gone anywhere! Would it be more unjust for the man in your story to go to hell than it was for the thief on the cross to go to heaven? I try not to let my own fallible reasoning determine what is true. Philoshophy & sentiment do not trump scripture. Jesus said "Faithful untill death...." so I will go with that. I do not make the rules, I just read about them. I am sure He will be just and do what is right. He is good!

How could He send someone to Hell for even a day? Would you? But then hell may be a place quite different than a literal lake of fire.

Your little story is an excellent example of what I have noticed all along: 90% of the universalist arguments seem to be philosophical. It is an illusion to reject something because we wish it to be untrue.

God bless! Homer

[RND]

How could He send someone to Hell for even a day? Would you? But then hell may be a place quite different than a literal lake of fire.

Homer, if you notice a man drowning in the ocean and several times you toss a life preserver to him only to see the man reject your attempts to help him and he drowns, did you kill him or did he kill himself?

If God does everything possible to awaken our senses to Him by the world around us, through the calling of the Holy Spirit, and even sending His Son to take our punishment is it His fault or ours if we reject Him?

[steve7150]

Philoshophy & sentiment do not trump scripture. Jesus said "Faithful untill death...." so I will go with that. I do not make the rules, I just read about them. I am sure He will be just and do what is right. He is good!






Homer, We are accountable to God because we do know right from wrong and we do have an understanding of justice, because he made us in his image and his likeness therefore dismissing making an opinion of my scenerio because it would be man's "philosophy" is not using the tools God gave us. In addition as you know many bible believers do not interpret scripture describing hell as you understand it meaning it is not so clear and if we are interested in this topic it must include accessing our sense of justice given to us by the ultimate Judge.
He gave us brains and morals and a sense of justice and actually dominion of the earth therefore we can discern in the scenrio i gave that the man who died should not spend eternity in hell or be annihilated.
Lastly it is God who allows the devil to blind the minds of unbelievers yet many Christians claim people choose to be in hell, i'm sorry but they don't choose hell if they are blinded.

[steve7150]

If God does everything possible to awaken our senses to Him by the world around us, through the calling of the Holy Spirit, and even sending His Son to take our punishment is it His fault or ours if we reject Him?






God does not do everything possible to reveal himself in fact he even allows the devil to blind the minds of unbelievers according to Paul. The resurrected Christ appeared to certain people and only then did they believe therefore do you think if the resurrected Christ would appear to everyone that few people would still believe?
God has his good reasons why he just does'nt appear before us possibly something to do with man having dominion of the earth and experiencing good with evil so that we learn by trial and error. Lastly it is not God's fault if we reject him in fact it's possible it may be part of his long range plan otherwise we could never really experience evil.

[RND]

God does not do everything possible to reveal himself in fact he even allows the devil to blind the minds of unbelievers according to Paul.

Steve, I think you are as far away from reality in this statement as one can be.

Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.

Rom 1:19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.

Rom 1:20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

Rom 1:23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

Rom 1:24 So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.

The resurrected Christ appeared to certain people and only then did they believe therefore do you think if the resurrected Christ would appear to everyone that few people would still believe?

Abraham never "saw" Christ but yet "knew" of Christ and believed.

God has his good reasons why he just does'nt appear before us possibly something to do with man having dominion of the earth and experiencing good with evil so that we learn by trial and error.

Brother, read Paul again. The earth, by it's mere existence, is proof of God and a revelation of His character.

Lastly it is not God's fault if we reject him in fact it's possible it may be part of his long range plan otherwise we could never really experience evil.

Those that 'reject' God are not subject to His law (will) nor can they ever be.

[steve7150]

Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.





They knew God? Who knew God, only the jews knew God. As for gentiles certain aspects of God can be known from nature yet despite nature, gentiles worshipped pagan gods for thousands of years all over the world.
This is the same Paul that said the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers, so which is it, no excuse or blindness from the devil? I thnk Paul in the verses you referenced is speaking of folks who knew God yet rejected him , meaning his brethren.

[RND]

They knew God? Who knew God, only the jews knew God.

The "wicked" knew God....sinners. All of them.

Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.

People, not just Jews.

As for gentiles certain aspects of God can be known from nature yet despite nature, gentiles worshipped pagan gods for thousands of years all over the world.

And then there were societies that were obviously monotheist in nature such as many tribes of Native America. Also, doesn't the Bible clearly say that in certain times of darkness God "winked" at ignorance?

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This is the same Paul that said the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers, so which is it, no excuse or blindness from the devil?

I'm not sure of where Paul may have said such a thing.

I thnk Paul in the verses you referenced is speaking of folks who knew God yet rejected him , meaning his brethren.

I would disagree. You mean only brethren can marvel and wonder about the birth of a baby, the moon in the sky during the day, or a beautiful sunset? Are you suggesting a "non-Jew" can't look at these things Steve and in someway respond to the Spirit that is calling them to believe?

Paul goes on to tell us Steve that when someone does the "work of the law" even though they were never given the law, they are a "law unto themselves" and their actions bear witness of the "law written on their hearts." Who does this in your eyes? Mr. Magoo?