Barclay was convinced (UR)

[RICHinCHRIST]

you wrote,"...None of these verses say that sin brings God's vindictive punishment. They say that sin, in its natural course, brings forth death..."

yes but neither do they unequivocally say, in its natural course either.

James seems to allude to the logical deduction I was making.


Here we can see the progression of sin. First it is a desire which entices. We might even conclude that before it is a desire it is just a thought (perhaps just a suggestion from our own carnal tendencies, or alternatively a temptation from men or Satan). Once the enticing thought latches onto the mind, it becomes a desire. The desire is the beginning of the natural "life" cycle of sin. After it is conceived (giving the idea that the temptation or thought became germinated when it met our own sinful desire), then sin is metaphorically born. Then sin begins its life cycle; it is a virus. When it is fullgrown, fully mature, it brings forth death itself. Therefore, due to James' previous comments (James 1:13), he seems to be alluding that God has nothing to do with this process whatsoever (at least initially). If God did not initiate this process, why must we assume that He is finishing off the process by actively pouring out wrath post-mortem? Perhaps sin brings about its own punishment, apart from God's intervention... or we could say, apart from God giving the final "TKO jab" of death. When God told Adam and Eve to not eat the tree, He said that they would die if they did. He did not say that He would have to kill them (we read that into His words). Although God chose to not allow them to live forever (by guarding the tree of life), there is no passage I can think of which, in a non-symbolic way, says that God will inflict a post-mortem death blow (or torture) on sinners. It's very possible, I think, that God is just allowing sin to run its life course, and it will end in death (despite God's continual attempts to save someone from its repercussive end). This is where Jesus' death and resurrection come in. If Jesus died to abolish death (more than just physical), then we must then look at His propitiation, and see if it's possible for it to cover those who may have to be subject to a longer life cycle of death than those redeemed in this life. If death continues on into post-mortem experience, perhaps God can use those circumstances to correct and mold someone by His purifying Spirit. Once again, this comes down to whether God loved humans enough to have created this kind of scenario in advance.

I agree that its a logical deduction. but there seems nothing illogical to deduce "the wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life," as maybe alluding to utter destruction aswell...but anyway that's why im on the fence still.

I'm still on the fence too. However, as I continue to read passages about God's wrath, or about His dealings with people, I can see that they are ambiguous enough to have the scenario above described to be a viable option in interpretation.

[Paidion]

Punishment can be just without being restorative at all.

If punishment is not restorative, what is it's purpose? You seem to have attempted an answer to that question with your sentence: “I think punishment is logical and necessary for the existence of free wills to live in a society.” What is logical about punishment if it serves no purpose. If punishment is not restorative, then what is it? Punitive? Why is retribution necessary in order “for the existence of free wills to live in a society”? Or do you see punishment as a means of deterrence? All evidence is to the contrary. For example, Canada has not had capital punishment since 1976. If the death penalty were a deterrent, one would expect the the homicide rate to have risen in Canada. But instead, it has declined steadily since 1976. On the other hand, parts of the United States have reinstated the death penalty since the 1970s. If the death penalty were a deterrent, one would expect the homicide rate to have declined in the United States. Instead, it has increased.
I conclude that unless punishment is reformative or restorative, it serves no purpose at all (unless it deters some people)!

If a person serves out their sentence in hell, then what?

It is not a matter of “serving out their sentence” such is imposed in worldly “justice systems”; when the criminal has served his time, he is free to go, whether he had changed or not. That is not the case with God's judgments. He is interested in the needs of every human being (man was created in His image). He wants to restore every individual to what he was meant to be. You are still thinking in retributive terms. Again the purpose of time in hell is reformative; its purpose is not to receive a sentence commensurate with the crime committed (which doesn't do anyone any good, neither the criminal, his victim, or society).

Is it also, that they still have not accepted the blood of Christ? (They wouldn’t be in hell if they had accepted).

Your thinking is from a different base, a different paradigm from mine. You are thinking in legalistic terms. “Sin must be punished.” But then if Christ took the punishment in you place, you don't have to be punished in hell forever”. You actually you DO believe that there are exceptions to the need for you to “pay” for your own sin by being punished forever (or annihilated).

But scripturally, that is not the reason for Christ's death at all. Every reason given in the New Testament is the same — in order to change the heart of the sinner, and to enable him to live righteously:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If they paid for their sins with their own blood, they would be back to square one.

“Paying for one's sins” is a mere legal concept. You can't “pay” for your sins, and neither can anyone else. What you need to do is face your sins, repent (have a change of mind and heart about them) and overcome them. God is not interested in positionally righteous people but in actually righteous people. Yes, I know we cannot succeed in living consistently righteous lives through self-effort. Yet people should try to do so in order to discover that they can't. It is then that they may wish to turn to Christ for His enabling grace (Titus 2). THIS is why Christ died — to provide this enablement.

What is the purpose for Christ’s sacrifice at that point?

The same purpose that it has been from the beginning — enablement to overcome wrongdoing.

If they are now done with their sentence and nothing further to do but wait to accept Jesus, what’s the motivation now? Boredom?

Again “accepting Jesus” is not part of The Gospel of the Kingdom (the only gospel there is — proclaimed by John the baptizer, Jesus, Peter, and Paul). The motivation to repent and submit to the authority of Christ, as I see it, consists of the ministry of the fully mature sons of God whom God will send to them, the presence of Christ Himself, combined with the reformative nature of their discomfort. Though pain and discomfort are not intrinsically reformative in this life, in combination with the other two influences over a long period of time, it will have this effect.

What is the point of all the verses about being ready, watching, having oil in your lamps, warning against falling away and being cut off, etc.?

They still apply.

If you think the refining fire is post mortem in hell, then what are Gods saints going through it for? (Malachi 3:3)

Do you consider all of the Levites to be God's saints? How about all of the Pharisees of the New Testament? I suspect that some of "the saints" may have to undergo a severe correction as well, if at their death they are found not to be overcomers. They will be raised in the second resurrection along with "the rest of the dead" (Rev 20:5,15). Verse 15 implies that there will be some of those in the second resurrection whose names will be found in the book of life.

We are not ever going to make ‘ourselves’ righteous through suffering, ‘God’ makes us righteous, in Him.

Does He “make” us righteous? Does He FORCE righteousness upon us? Or are you still talking about the “positional” righteousnes which we supposedly have because Christ took our punishment so that we wouldn't have to? No, suffering in hell will not make us “positionally righteous” so that God will forgive us and take us to heaven. Rather our suffering in hell (if we go there) will be one factor of the correction process which God will provide

...so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:10,11)

Could the knees “under the earth” be a reference to those who will be in hell?

The fire is the 'testing' of our ‘faith’, we don’t need ‘faith’ post mortem, and certainly not in the LOF.

Why would those who are cast into the lake of fire not need faith? It is only by faith that the enabling grace of God can be appropriated, the grace bestowed upon us to actually become righteous. They are going to have to become righteous in order to get right with God — just like the rest of us/

Faith that Jesus is my Savior in the LOF?

Such a question belies the fact that for you faith is only belief that Christ's blood availed for you to be covered so that you can be forgiven. Again, that is not what Christ's death is all about. As the verses I quoted affirm, Christ's death is so that we can live for Him instead of ourselves — so that He might be Lord of our lives — so that we might be redeemed from wrongdoing and be purified, belonging to the Lord so that we will be eager to do good deeds — so that Christ can do away with sin in our lives.

[jeremiah]

"I can see that they are ambiguous enough to have the scenario above described to be a viable option in interpretation."

i agree rich,

grace and peace

[Jepne]

I understand restricting a person who is a danger to society, in prison if need be, but, as with Paidion, I do not see how punishment for punishment’s sake is logical or necessary, rather, I see it as very destructive - humiliating and degrading - and there is enough of that in anyone’s life without someone bringing it on to them in the name of God and love.

A prison guard once said, “You can’t swing a cat around in here without hitting someone who was abused as a child.” Jesus said that when you visit someone in prison, you are visiting Him. What did He mean?

If punishment is just, it will be restorative, and if not restorative, it would feed the self-righteousness of the administrator.

‘Serving a sentence’ is not a Biblical concept. When one ‘serves his sentence,’ and ‘pays his debt to society’ – he suffers the illusion that he is scot-free, yet, his character is not changed a whit, in fact, in prison, he may have learned how to become even more of a criminal.

Whether regenerate or not, it is not suffering in itself that makes one righteous, it is the choosing the way of love and humility through the fire that burns away the dross, strengthens character, makes one repent of foolishness, change the thinking about it and decide it isn’t worth a few moments’ gratification.

“There are no unredeemed in heaven, you can thank God for annihilating them”

My unregenerate parents and husband died horrible deaths, not knowing there was a God who loved them. I can’t imagine thanking God if they were wiped off the face of life forever. Heaven, to me, would be seeing them redeemed and changed and singing with the angels.

Those who see heaven as an exclusive club may lose their joy in being there – and since there are no tears in heaven, would it be possible they could lose their own places there?

[steve7150]

Those who see heaven as an exclusive club may lose their joy in being there – and since there are no tears in heaven, would it be possible they could lose their own places there?








Good thought whether heaven is an exclusive club?

[Jepne]

I think 'exclusive club' is the way I've heard some folks talk about heaven. Sad, huh.

Some thoughts in response to RICHINCHRIST

I do not see that God forcibly gave Paul eternal life – He appeared to Paul, and, thank God, Paul knew Who it was.

I am also seeing sin as its own punishment. Misery seems to always follow sin until I see it and repent and make restitution if necessary and possible.

When God is seeking the unregenerate, the misery they experience helps them to realize they need a saviour, but what if they get hit by a truck before they find Him? Would God love them any less?

If criminals pay for their own sin by living in an asocial society (that destroys any life skills they may have gone in with) for a period of time, then what do they need Jesus for – they are prepared for heaven! Huh? But only repentance and restitution, restoring the stolen car, will begin to effect righteousness in a person.

Speaking of the victim wanting his car back, I have a friend whose sisters had their father put in jail for molesting them all (big time bad stuff), and not only for that, but what really bothered them was that he would not fully acknowledge that he had done it. What they wanted was not revenge, but a real father who valued them, that they could have a real relationship with.

My friend worked through all that was done to her and is a strong Christian, but one of the sisters may not get there in one lifetime, even though she is progressing. If she died tomorrow, I can’t believe God would tell her she missed out forever because she didn’t say ‘the prayer’ in time. Twenty years later, the father still is not able to face what he did, but most of them just love him anyway, even though many would say, “Lock up the scumbag and throw away the key,” as if time in the slammer will help anyone.

Others, referring to the Law of Moses, would call for execution. That would have done possibly irreparable harm to my friend, had he been executed. Jesus said to the woman who committed a capital crime, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.”

[jriccitelli]

We need to be sympathetic, not pathetic. I’ve heard it said we need to use the backbone God gave us.
(Harsh I know, but the God of UR is being turned into a jelly fish, read on. I'm not a big meany either)
I’ve heard it said those in prison are the ones who had enough courage to carry out the sin, sins that are in everyone’s heart. All of us should be in prison for our sin, and maybe we are. It takes courage to stand up to sin, denounce it, and courage to suggest that God will judge sin.
I don’t see sin as its own punishment 'necessarily' in this life.
David says he sees the wicked prosper, and evil men living well, so do I.
(I recall TK commenting on the homes of the Hollywood icons in a thread, it seems Godlessness does pay)
They don’t all OD, get diseases nor get caught, and many may never experience the consequences. I’ve known plenty that seem to be quite happy living godless and evil. I don’t know what people all of us have come in contact with but I have met some people who are quite delighted in literally putting their finger in Gods face and living for pleasure. They seem quite aware God speaks of hell and judgment and Holiness, and that seems to be ‘why’ they seem to hate god. Example; My friends (!) here in San Jose were friends with a band named ‘Eye hate God’

I wrote this on the thread ‘Compassion when looking back in time, concerning prayers for the dead;

I have 'not' always been as ‘sympathetic’ in my theology towards 'the unreached and unbelievers', as I am today. This group of people I am sympathetic towards are those who would be defined as people who;
A. May have embraced the Gospel but never had the chance. And also;
B. Those who may have accepted given better opportunities, or more time to accept the Gospel.
After my father died I have understood the ‘hope’ that many have, the ‘hope’ that a person may find grace with God even if they never actually confessed their faith or belief in the atonement.
I have always kept this hope under a cover, for I know the Bible does not ‘promote’ much hope for the sinner without an atonement made for their sin. And it has been given as a ‘command’ to accept and believe in His sacrifice, that Christ died so that all who would 'Believe' would have forgiveness of sins through 'Faith'.
So my ‘hope’ for my Dad is based on two biblical truths, 1. God is Good, and 2. God can do whatever He wants. But these are aspects of Gods character, and not the sum total of His character.
God must be Just in the judgment of sin, and True to His own Words of ‘warning’ and ‘commands to repent’.
I consider this idea to be a hope for something, for which we have not been given any ‘solid’ scriptural support.
In fact this idea is opposed to commands for repentance, atonement, belief, punishment, hell, holiness, testing, etc. And it is opposed to the ‘overwhelming’ warnings to the unrepentant sinner and ‘page after page’ of detailed descriptions of Gods judgments and punishment of sinners and such...

...I am very familiar with Catholic prayers for the dead, and the Mormon baptisms for the dead. Both practices being unbiblical and I feel very misguided and misleading.
In fact it depreciates the demands and urgency and Gospel. I see that it also reinforces a belief that ignorance is as good as truth. It also may condone the wilful obedience to falsehood that is so prevalent and gravely dangerous. For wilful ignorance of truth and acceptance of falsehood is commonly being masqueraded as sincerity.
Both Paul and Moses expressed sympathy for their unbelieving kinsmen;
Exodus 32: 11-14, Numbers 14:11-31 both should be read, but these people were still alive. Paul intercedes for them also in Romans 9:1-2, 10:1, alive and dead. And David’s prayer in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 is revealing, note he gets up, dressed, and eats and leaves the matter in Gods hands. And that is the end of the matter for David. To continue interceding is not to have heard what God has written.

And I do agree with Jepne that Paul could have said no, Paul wasn’t the first person he knocked off a horse. God will find someone else, but unlike Jonah Paul had a zeal for God, and a willingness to lay his life down for Gods people, like Moses and David. Etc. (I think that is what God saw in these men)

My father was a very good and honest man, and I always said that my father was a much better man than I.
He still resisted every attempt to listen to the gospel, eventually he started reading, but was swayed by 'higher criticism', my only hope is that we found three or four bibles on his bedside when he died.
If my dad, whom I cry over still, is not there I will accept it. He had more opportunity and revelation than I had, but never to my knowledge repented in 83 years.

My mom is in a nursing home now and has nodded her head to a few offers of the good news, but her whole life she has willfully turned her back to the bible and anything in it. I noted that she watched TV 6-8 hours everyday for nearly 40 years and yet could never be persuaded to read a line from her bible. I have said; I've told her many times the gospel(and she loves and respects me), but the decision is hers, she has decided God is not important to her, it's her choice.
I can live with the knowledge that my mom may go to punishment and perish, God tried in the way He does,
I think it was a fair test, my mom is a grown adult who has had 85 years to decide, and I am not blaming God.
I have been thinking lately what a blessing God has given my mom in the excellent nursing home and wonderful employees that are there, the weekly bible studies at the home, but does my mom show interest and gratitude? Not much.

I love my mom like I do my friends, and I visit and I hang out with them, but me and my wife agree it is painful and tragic to watch them day after day give virtually no glory or thanks to God. It is a joy to sit and visit with people who love God, but I notice that as much as I love my unbelieving friends and family the conversation and time becomes meaningless knowing their distaste for God and his goodness. They have heard and they have opportunity, so the ball is in their court.

[steve7150]

My mom is in a nursing home now and has nodded her head to a few offers of the good news, but her whole life she has willfully turned her back to the bible and anything in it. I noted that she watched TV 6-8 hours everyday for nearly 40 years and yet could never be persuaded to read a line from her bible. I have said; I've told her many times the gospel(and she loves and respects me), but the decision is hers, she has decided God is not important to her, it's her choice.










What do you think of what Paul said "the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers" (2nd Cor 4.4) and also the fact that the devil is rendered powerless right before unbelievers are sent into the lake of fire?
Do you think there is any connection between the two statements?

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

The motivation to repent and submit to the authority of Christ, as I see it, consists of the ministry of the fully mature sons of God whom God will send to them, the presence of Christ Himself, combined with the reformative nature of their discomfort. Though pain and discomfort are not intrinsically reformative in this life, in combination with the other two influences over a long period of time, it will have this effect.

Where do you find this mission plan? Is it in 3rd Peter somewhere? Or did you just make it up?

steve7150 wrote:

What do you think of what Paul said "the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers" (2nd Cor 4.4) and also the fact that the devil is rendered powerless right before unbelievers are sent into the lake of fire?

I think they were willingly blinded. Paul says they were without excuse:

Romans 1:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19. because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

And what is this wrath business about anyway? Did Paul not know that all God's punishments are loving correction? This word wrath (Grk. orge) speaks of vindictive anger. As in "vengeance is mine, I will repay". And Paul spoke of this wrath again and again. John the Baptist and John the Apostle too! The Holy Spirit should have washed their mouths out with soap.

Perhaps the universalists will do as the JWs and give us a corrected version of the scriptures.

[Jepne]

Interesting point, Steve. Very good.

Ricciteli, you say “the God of UR is being turned into a jelly fish” – was Jesus spineless when He forgave His enemies and bade us do the same? It took great courage for my friend to face up to the pain and destruction her father caused and forgive him. People who hold grudges slink around the corner when they see the despised one coming. Reconciling with enemies is not for cowards.

“It takes courage to stand up to sin, denounce it, and courage to suggest that God will judge sin.”

Telling others about their sin and denouncing it is one thing, but how about your own sin? That is not so easy.

What about, instead of sending people to prison as punishment, have them face the people they harmed, and make restitution by going to work to replace the car they stole? This works very well where judges have enough vision to order it.

As for ‘the rich’ and ‘the poor’, I think that no one is exempt from having to deal at some point in this life with a destructive relationship, the death of a child, the loss of a good friend, cancer. . . . What must it be like, having your deepest heartache or a vicious court case emblazoned on the tabloids for everyone to entertain themselves with at the check out counter. How humiliating. No amount of money can make you happy and full of joy, only distract you from living.

In school, I always laughed about my friends’ fear of going to hell forever because I knew they had just been indoctrinated from an early age to believe that. I did fear that someone would burst out in anger with me in the next few minutes, or hours.

The urgency for the Gospel to come to a sinner’s life comes from passion for them - because they have no tools for life: enslaved to TV, self-centeredness, filthy thoughts, ruined relationships and resulting illnesses. That’s what moved Jesus’ heart.

So, you say that you have hope for your Dad, even though he is dead?
Do you know what it is that ties your mother to escaping into the TV for so many hours a day? Is there something in the programs she is drawn to that gives you a clue to what her interest is? I am not asking you to share unless you want to but wanted to bring up the question for your consideration.

If punishment is not restorative, what do you think it's purpose is?

Why would you say that retribution is necessary in order “for the existence of free wills to live in a society”?