Universalism and the Character of God

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:20 pm

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:

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Traveler wrote:I am having a hard time understanding your position here. You say you cannot be a "determinist of any kind" and at the same time believe God is determined to save everyone, even if that means saving a person through the 'fires of Gehenna'.

There is no contradiction here, Bob. When God decides to do a thing, nothing can stop Him. For example, God is going to send His Son back to earth a second time. No number of free agents can prevent that from happening. They do not have the power to do so.

When I say I am not a determinist of any kind, I mean that our choices are free and autonomous. No one has forced us to make those choices, neither God at the foundation of the world, or anyone else.
Of course, there are strong influences upon us to make particular choices.
For example, a man may hold a gun to your head and order you to give him your money. In common parlance, you would say that you were "forced" to give him your money. However, you didn't lose your power of choice in this situation. You could have chosen not to give him your money and risked being shot to death. Indeed, some people have made such a choice in just such a situation. True, most people would choose to give the gunman their money, because they thought their likelihood of survival would be greater.

God always respects our free will. He doesn't cause us to make certain choices. If He did, we would be mere "robots". Indeed, God's respect for our free will may be a large part of the solution to "the problem of evil". This may be the main reason He doesn't always prevent people from murdering or torturing others.

God does, however, influence us to choose to be disciples of Christ even now. He does this through His people, who bring the gospel to us, or win us with kindness, or many other such means. In these ways Christ's disciples are "agents of the reconciliation" right now!

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation...

Sometimes God uses difficulties in people's lives to influence them to become disciples.

For the majority of mankind, these means have not been successful before death. But, unlike us, God never gives up on anyone!
For those who don't submit to Christ now, He uses the severe mercy of the purifying fires of Gehenna. I also believe that He will send His perfected sons to Gehenna to bring the permanent (or "everlasting") gospel to those who will be suffering there. The agents of the reconciliation will continue to do their work.

If God indeed places the wicked into Gehenna for the sole purpose of bringing repentance and reconcilliation, I don't see any good reason to beieve in any kind of 'free-agency'. In your view, God is using coersion rather than persuasion. God then fundamentalty becomes a divine rapist. I know you don't believe God is a divine rapist.

God will be using "force", yes. He uses force now --- in the sense of persuasion. His use of corrective force will be much greater then. That does not negate a person's free will. One can choose not to give the gunman his money.

I will ask you a question I posed ...

On which biblical grounds can you give us that would show conclusively, that if God 'failed' at bringing a person to repentance while he yet lives in this age, He will ultimately be successful in the age to come?

On the grounds of Jesus' statement, "If I am lifted up, I will draw all people to me."

It is obvious that He has not drawn all people to Him in this life. There's no way to construe fewer than 1% of people as "all".

But like the sticky paper in my analogy which keeps drawing the coins to itself until it finally draws them all, Jesus will also keep working with everyone until His word is fulfilled.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:21 pm

All right . Lets take a closer look at it. If it is His will that none should perish, but that all would come to Christ, and you assert that all will come to Christ eventually, why would Jesus threaten unbelievers with judgement at all if all are going to be saved anyway? The repeated threats of Jesus make no sense whatsoever if all are ultimately going to believe in Him.

Bob, Obviously judgment is going to be painful and unpleasent plus there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But it seems that you and your compatriots can't seem to picture any pathway that includes mercy in it also.
But God is a just God , and God is merciful as well.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:27 pm

Traveler wrote:On which biblical grounds can you give us that would show conclusively, that if God 'failed' at bringing a person to repentance while he yet lives in this age, He will ultimately be successful in the age to come?

Bob,

I have a biblical passage which I believe supports this in Revelation Chapter 7. I realize that there are many differing views of this passage, so I can't say that one can draw a conclusion from it. But from my perspective, it says that there is an innumerable multitude of people who come through God's judgment and are made clean by the Blood of Christ.

Rev 7:9-17
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

The "great tribulation" is the wrath of God. Paul called it "tribulation and anguish"...

Rom 29-10
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

The point is that these people are said to come out of this tribulation and are made clean by the blood of Christ.

As I said earlier, there are other views of this passage. But I wanted to point out that it may be the 'missing link' passage that you are seeking.

Todd

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:37 am

Paidion gave the following as an example of "free will":

When I say I am not a determinist of any kind, I mean that our choices are free and autonomous. No one has forced us to make those choices, neither God at the foundation of the world, or anyone else.
Of course, there are strong influences upon us to make particular choices.
For example, a man may hold a gun to your head and order you to give him your money. In common parlance, you would say that you were "forced" to give him your money. However, you didn't lose your power of choice in this situation. You could have chosen not to give him your money and risked being shot to death. Indeed, some people have made such a choice in just such a situation. True, most people would choose to give the gunman their money, because they thought their likelihood of survival would be greater.

Incredible!

So a man goes on a date with a woman and propostions her for sex. She refuses whereupon her pulls out a gun, holds it to her head, and asks again. Trembling with fear, she agrees to his demand. Later she has him arrested but the judge throws the case out of court because she consented! According to Paidion's reasoning, the judge made the correct decision. No siree, she had at least two choices and the man only used "strong influence"!

Quote from the Northwestern University Law Review: "Choices are either made for reasons or not. If choices are made for reasons, those reasons determine the choices, and thus choice is free only if the reasons are not themselves determined."

Paidion asserts that those in hell will accept Jesus "just like we do". This is not so. We come to Him by faith:

Hebrews 11:1 (New King James Version)
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Those in hell will have faced the Lord in judgement and been cast into their place of punishment. They will know by firsthand sight and experience exactly who He is, and I do not believe more than a few seconds will have elapsed before they are on their knees confessing Jesus as Lord. This is decidedly not "just like us".

It might be argued that many come to Jesus in this life due to the "strong influence" of the preaching of "fire and brimstone" and thus there is no difference between them and those who are imagined to believe the gospel in hell. This is not so. It takes faith to believe, in this life, that there is a hell and a God who can put you there.

It is also asserted that all must eventually be saved because it "is His will that none should perish". However, this assumes that God has only one will. We have more than one will, desire different things, which often conflict with one another. It may be our will to lose weight, and also to eat another piece of pie; these are in conflict with one another.

God wills various things, some of which may conflict with one another. I am convinced God places a high value on human freedom, while He is also not willing that we sin. These two values are obviously in conflict. We sin. God willed that Judas betray Jesus. God did not value Judas' betrayal, thus Judas was comdemned for His betrayal.

It is God's will that all be saved in this life:

1 Timothy 2:4 (New King James Version)

4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And it is also His desire that this happen on His terms:

John 5:24 (New International Version)

24. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life".

It is God's will that none come into condemnation but many do.

Paidion also said:

For those who don't submit to Christ now, He uses the severe mercy of the purifying fires of Gehenna. I also believe that He will send His perfected sons to Gehenna to bring the permanent (or "everlasting") gospel to those who will be suffering there. The agents of the reconciliation will continue to do their work.

This is an example of why we have so much difficulty here; it is a fictive statement.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:45 am

Hello Don (Paidion),

I wrote:What's the CU (Christian Universalist) position on people who die in any of the above sins {I Cor 6:9-11}?

You replied:
My position as a believer in the reconciliation of all to God, is that these people must repent and be delivered from their sins the same as the rest of us. It just so happens that this will occur after death, while for some of the rest of us, it occurs prior to our death.

If the Bible taught it is possible for a dead person to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior---which it doesn't---the dead would defintely become Christians in a way no one ever has. Not a Christian alive, nor one who has believed and died in the past, became a believer after they were dead and buried.

Romans 10:8ff. teaches how people become Christians: The methodology is hearing the Gospel and believing it pre-mortem (before death).

Do you have any Scripture that specifically states dead people will (or even can) "hear" the Gospel? I've heard the Gospel message preached at funerals and the dead person in the casket didn't hear it.

I wrote:They (the unbelieving dead) will be saved without having the Spirit of the Living God?

Your reply:
No.

The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit is given to people while they are alive, always and without fail. The Spirit of God was 'outpoured' in our current 'The Last Days' on the Day of Pentecost over 2,000 years ago. Explaining it, Peter said, "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh" (Acts 2:16, NASB)

Peter also taught that the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit extends till the close of this present 'Last Days Age' which will come to an end on the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ; at which time [all of] the dead shall be judged.

Acts 2 (NASB)
21And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

God calls people to salvation now through the proclamation of the Gospel. Those who receive God's salvation are those who respond to Him by calling [back to Him] on the name of the Lord while they are alive (Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13).

Would you provide Scripture that speaks of "another [future] outpouring of the Holy Spirit"?
Can you give biblical evidence that God will call anyone to salvation in the Age to Come?
Where does the Bible teach that God will have "another calling" to salvation other than the one taught by the founding Apostles? which will come to a decisive end when Jesus returns.
Where does the Bible teach a corpse can receive the Holy Spirit?

I wrote:Do they (dead sinners) not need the washing of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ? To be "put in the right with God" (justified, sins forgiven) through His blood?

Your reply:
They do have a need for the efficacy of the death of Christ like everyone else.

Yes they do...NOW (before they die)!

Can you give a biblical example of a [physically] dead unbeliever who was washed of his sins by Christ's precious blood?
Do you know of any sermons by any person in the Bible that were preached to a corpse or to corpses?
Would you cite at least one case of this?
If you can find any examples of this---which I don't believe you can---they most certainly wouldn't become Christians "like everyone else".

Name one single Christian IN HISTORY who became one after they died.

Rick

P.S. Posted from earlier. Paidion missed it.

Post by **__id_1679** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:04 am

Hello Homer,

You "beat me to the punch"! I guess in Paidions analogy, God has the gun to our heads?

In Paidions world, there is no "actual free-agency".
Its merely an illusion to him. (Sorry Don, but thats where your logic leads.) If we follow his logic out to its inevitable conlusion, God is the ultimate cause of our sin. If this is the case, I can see why CU's think the way they do. Apparently, God in their reality is 'apologiziing to us through Christ' .

In Jesus,
Bob

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:14 am

I disagree with the idea that God punishes in Gehenna until one repents. God's punishments are according to works - they are proportional to the sin.

In the resurrection, everyone will have complete understanding and see the Holy God for who he is. Everyone will fall on their knees in praise and adoration. The flesh will have been destroyed and the human frailties that motivated sin will be gone.

Todd

Post by **_mdh** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:31 am

Homer,

Paidion asserts that those in hell will accept Jesus "just like we do". This is not so. We come to Him by faith:

Hebrews 11:1 (New King James Version)
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Those in hell will have faced the Lord in judgement and been cast into their place of punishment. They will know by firsthand sight and experience exactly who He is, and I do not believe more than a few seconds will have elapsed before they are on their knees confessing Jesus as Lord. This is decidedly not "just like us".

Yet there are many examples in scripture of those who have had faith after seeing. We have the example of Paul, who encountered the risen Lord in a marvelous vision and turned to Him in faith and became perhaps the greatest of all missionaries. Abraham and Moses both had encounters with God and they are mentioned in the "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews. There is the good old example of "doubting" Thomas, who had to see to believe. Jesus mentioned to Him that more blessed are those who do not see and yet believe, but does that mean Thomas' faith was not genuine?

I suspect you knew what Paidion was getting at when he said those in "Gehenna" would need to come to Christ as we do. They will need to come to the end of themselves and surrender to their Lord, just like we did.

You have mentioned before how you think someone would almost immediately surrender to Christ in "Hell". Yet I can tell you from my own personal experience that just falling on my knees and saying "Uncle" to God did not deliver me from my own personal "Hell". I needed to reap what I sowed. And it hurt for a long time. Why should it be any different for those who do not surrender to God (for whatever reason) in this life?

We all reap what we sow. Many will be very very disappointed with the crop they sowed on that day.

However, I do not see in scripture where this precludes ultimate reconciliation with God.

Blessings,
Mike

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:31 am

Rick wrote:P.S. Posted from earlier. Paidion missed it.

Paidion didn't miss it. He thought all that tripe about dead persons in caskets not hearing the gospel, etc. was too ludicrous to be dignified by a reply.

You know well enough that I am not talking about dead bodies hearing the gospel. If you are expecting me to respond to you, say something sensible.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:38 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:1. Paidion didn't miss it. He thought all that tripe about dead persons in caskets not hearing the gospel, etc. was too ludicrous to be dignified by a reply.

2. You know well enough that I am not talking about dead bodies hearing the gospel. If you are expecting me to respond to you, say something sensible.

First, I have to say you do this often when you're backed into a corner. You just bail out. When you do this I assume my point or points are correct and your ideas are wrong since you have no rebuttal!

1. God made humans as rational beings, created in His image. The method He has chosen to 'speak' with them is through the spoken or written Word [language]; either through His prophets, His Son Jesus Christ, Christ's Apostles, evangelists, or anyone who writes or speaks His Word (the Gospel).

2. I know what you talk about. Tell me, has God suddenly changed how He communicates with people?

Romans 10 (ESV)
8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Paul, the Apostle who was personally selected by Jesus to bring God's message (the Gospel) to the non-Jewish world wrote:
a. Salvation comes ONLY by faith (dead people cannot have faith).
b. Faith ONLY comes after hearing (dead people cannot hear).
c. Living people (leave alone dead people) cannot believe in anyone or anything they've never heard anything about.
d. Salvation comes to those who have faith and "call on the name of the Lord" (dead people cannot pray or cry out to God to save them).

The Bible teaches salvation comes through having faith in God, believing in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead.

There is no other way.

Therefore, your beliefs about "another way of post-mortem salvation" are false! You proclaim "another gospel" --- which is clearly and decisively NOT the Gospel Paul preached.

You asked that I "say something sensible". Do you understand my words? Do you understand Paul's words? I don't know how Paul could have made things any clearer or any simpler. If you do understand Paul's words, do you simply not believe them?

Please comment on the above Romans passage giving the reasons why you accept or reject what Paul wrote. What teachings of Paul do you agree and disagree with?

Thanks,
Rick