Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Hi Todd,

I think it is much more consistent with the rest of scripture to see this as speaking of the judgment on Jerusalem in 70AD. I don't think this supports your view strongly at all.

Derek,

It could be speaking of 70AD, BUT, it could also be supporting my view. I think the wording is very important here. In verse 27 it says, "He will reward each according to his works." This is a very common theme regarding all of the Judgment texts, that all people will be judged "according to their works." This does not sound to me like it is talking about 70AD. I think it is much more consistent with the rest of scripture to conclude that it is talking about the judgment of mankind.

Rev 20:12
...were judged according to their works

Rom 2:9-10
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And of the sheep who had done good works and the goats who had not, he said,...

Matt 25:46
46 And these [goats] will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life."

And while we are on this subject I would like to ask you to consider something about the judgment of mankind. How can we be saved by grace if we are judged according to our works? This is a conflict with traditional Christian theology. Some will say that the works show that we had faith and that is why it is written this way (but this is just a "work-around," it is not what it says). It never says anything about being judged to show our faith. I believe that is because the judgment is happening now, in our lifetime, and we are being rewarded and punished according to our works through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The rewards are God's spiritual blessings and the punishment is the conviction of the Holy Spirit as a call to repentance. Look at this verse.

1 Cor 11:32
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

What kind of parent does not punish (correct) his child until he is fully grown? What kind of God would withhold his correction until it is too late to do anything about it?

It could be that the whole idea about a final Day of Judgment is just that the Lord will bring all things to conclusion on that Day - not that he is withholding punishment until then. See this verse.

2 Pet 2:9 (NIV)
...the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter.

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:
FOF, I think you are mistaken in presuming that there will be no future judgment. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches that. And your explanations of scriptures that do teach future judgment seem to require extreme reinterpretation to accomodate your belief.

Paidion,
I realize that my view hinges on the timing of the judgment. My belief is that the judgment began when Christ ascended to his throne. The following scripture strongly supports this idea.

FOF, none of the scriptures you quoted "strongly supports this idea." Indeed, in my opinion, they do not even weakly support it.

For example, here is the passage from Matthew 16 which you bolded:

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

What relation has this passage to the warnings about post-mortem judgment? Are you saying that all judgment had to take place before the ones standing there would physically die?

Well, what about these words of Jesus recorded in John 8:51?


Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.

Let's consider the "timing" involved in this statement. Does this mean that those who keep Christ's word will never die? I'm not sure what our Lord meant when He used the phrases "seeing death" and "tasting death". But clearly it could not have been physical death in John 8:51, since many have kept His word since Jesus walked the earth, but they have all died.
So how can we be certain that physical death was meant in Matthew 16:27-28?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who wrought miracles in his presence, by which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire, burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tested day and night for ages and ages.

The beast and the false prophet will be human beings. They will suffer in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) for ages and ages, not just for a short time on earth.

[Guest]

The discussion on this thread amazes me - one fictive argument after another, on and on.

The idea that all punishment for sin occurs in this life offends me, and when you look at reality the absurdity of the idea is obvious. I see good and godly people, some of them close relatives, suffer enormously through life, yes, even from childhood while those in rebellion against God have have wonderful lives by any common sense view of the matter.

Do you think the suffering, godly people "deserve" their lot in life?

As in the old song of lament:
"Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long,
While there are others living about us,
Never molested tho in the wrong."

Have you not noticed?

[Guest]

Homer,
Asaph's psalm 73 comes to mind...

[Guest]

Let's consider the "timing" involved in this statement. Does this mean that those who keep Christ's word will never die? I'm not sure what our Lord meant when He used the phrases "seeing death" and "tasting death". But clearly it could not have been physical death in John 8:51, since many have kept His word since Jesus walked the earth, but they have all died.
So how can we be certain that physical death was meant in Matthew 16:27-28?

Paidion,

I doesn't matter if he was talking about physical death or spiritual death because because spiritual death is something that happens during our lifetime. So my argument about the timing is still valid.

Todd

[Guest]

The discussion on this thread amazes me - one fictive argument after another, on and on.

The idea that all punishment for sin occurs in this life offends me, and when you look at reality the absurdity of the idea is obvious. I see good and godly people, some of them close relatives, suffer enormously through life, yes, even from childhood while those in rebellion against God have have wonderful lives by any common sense view of the matter.

Do you think the suffering, godly people "deserve" their lot in life?

As in the old song of lament:
"Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long,
While there are others living about us,
Never molested tho in the wrong."

Have you not noticed?

Homer,

I must make myself perfectly clear. I never said anything about physical blessings or curses. The Lord makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust. Many of the just suffer with sickness, the untimely death of loved ones, loss of their jobs, persecution, etc, etc. While at the same time many of the unjust are very wealthy and in good health. But you see, the righteous, while in their trials, can have peace with God, can find joy in their struggles, and find rest in their labors, and the love of their family. But perhaps the unjust, in their worldly prosperity, harbor guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc. This is what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with your physical or worldly circumstances.

Remember in Romans 1 we are told that God pours out his wrath on the ungodly by giving them...

....over to uncleaness (v.24)
....over to vile passions (v.26)
....over to a debased mind (v.28 )

These things can happen to those who are very prosperous in a worldly sense.

Todd

[Guest]

todd wrote:

But perhaps the unjust, in their worldly prosperity, harbor guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc. This is what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with your physical or worldly circumstances.

The second word of the above statement, is a HUGE "perhaps." your entire argument seems to hinge on this "perhaps." indeed, if the non-christian on the earth does not IN REALITY "harbor guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc" then your framework fails. and even assuming that they do in fact harbor some of these things, it is not necesarily torment to them. many people genuinely LIKE to be lustful, proud and hateful and amibtious. and to suggest that missing out on God's blessing and peace is tantamount to torment, even if they dont realize what they are missing, is a HUGE stretch, and I agree with Homer that this is a rather offensive view and totally cheapens what Jesus actually did for us.

TK

[Guest]

Those who hold to universalism seem(to my mind)to be missing one of the "Elementary" aspects of the faith. Hebrews 6 mentions the Eternal judgment as one of the "Elementary"teachings.

Eternal judgment may not seem like a "just" thing to us, but it makes perfect sense in light of God's character. Men and Women such as Hitler, Madalyn Murray, Nero, Joel Olsteen(J/K=) get exactly what they deserve unless they come to Christ who is the only solution for the problem of sin.

I wrestle between two positions, Eternal torment and Conditional Imortality. The other view doesn't seem to fit at all with the scriptural data givin us by the scriptures IMHO.

[Guest]

Eternal judgment may not seem like a "just" thing to us, but it makes perfect sense in light of God's character. Men and Women such as Hitler, Madalyn Murray, Nero, Joel Olsteen(J/K=) get exactly what they deserve unless they come to Christ who is the only solution for the problem of sin.

Paul said we "reap what we sow" which reflects God's justice so how would that apply to the vast majority of people who have been lived their lives on this planet yet have little or no idea who Jesus is. Basically i've heard no reasonable explanation how the vast majority of people might have the opportunity of salvation since few people have been blessed throughout history to be born into a bible believing family. In fact bibles have only been widely available for maybe a couple of hundred years and only in developed countries.
There is a place between universalism and this physical life being the last opportunity to accept Christ. Whatever this place is, i take solace in knowing that God revealed himself through Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

I agree with Homer that this is a rather offensive view and totally cheapens what Jesus actually did for us.

TK and Homer,

Think about what you are saying. You find it offensive that someone believes that God is so loving that he saves us whether or not we know him or follow him? Do you think it is better that God would forever torment or annihilate those who fall short? I believe that our God would not set up such as system. Why would he send his Son to die for mankind only to save a few of them? Is not God powerful enough to save everyone? How could universal salvation "cheapen" what Christ did for us? Actually it goes far beyond the traditional view in which Christ is only able to save a few.

Todd