Yes, it will be accomplished, Philman, when all persons have been reconciled to God. Thus it cannot be an "eternal" purpose, can it? Rather it's God's purpose of the ages.
I appeciate your quotes of the Concordant translation. I think it more accurately expresses the intention of the NT authors in many passages.
"Aionios" NEVER means "eternal"
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
No matter how one perceives the future. The completion of "purpose" cannot be eternal.Paidion wrote:Yes, it will be accomplished, Philman, when all persons have been reconciled to God. Thus it cannot be an "eternal" purpose, can it? Rather it's God's purpose of the ages.
I appeciate your quotes of the Concordant translation. I think it more accurately expresses the intention of the NT authors in many passages.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Most Universalist theories are obliged to embarrass themselves with the translation of the Greek word aionios, although some have given up on this. This is the word which is invariably used about God, The Gift of God, Salvation, our inheritance. Any attempt to whittle down its meaning from "everlasting" to "age-long" or something of the sort only throws a doubt upon the eternity of God and our heavenly life, and often makes nonsense of the scriptures.
From the start of this thread Paidion has assured us aionios can never mean eternal. The meaning of the word aionios is clearly seen in the contrast between that which is thousands of years old and that which is eternal in 2 Cor. 4:17-18.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18 (New King James Version)
17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal (aionios)weight of glory, 18. while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios, not temporary).
The things which are seen have already lasted for ages (age-long) from the beginning of the creation; so we should be obliged to translate "The things that are seen are age-long" (Paul could have used aionios here according to our universalists instead of proskairos). Why didn't Paul use aionios; we are assured it would have been the perfect word for a period of thousands of years!
And then we have "But the things that are not seen are aionia" i.e., also last for ages! The things that are seen and those that are unseen are coeval!
So the things that are seen and those that are unseen are both age-long, or last thousands of years! Paul needed a few lessons in Greek. And poor, imprecise Matthew. If only he had used proskairos in Matthew 25:46 we would know what he meant, but he used the same adjective he used for our (eternal) life, that is, "age-long" life, whatever that is.
From the start of this thread Paidion has assured us aionios can never mean eternal. The meaning of the word aionios is clearly seen in the contrast between that which is thousands of years old and that which is eternal in 2 Cor. 4:17-18.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18 (New King James Version)
17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal (aionios)weight of glory, 18. while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios, not temporary).
The things which are seen have already lasted for ages (age-long) from the beginning of the creation; so we should be obliged to translate "The things that are seen are age-long" (Paul could have used aionios here according to our universalists instead of proskairos). Why didn't Paul use aionios; we are assured it would have been the perfect word for a period of thousands of years!
And then we have "But the things that are not seen are aionia" i.e., also last for ages! The things that are seen and those that are unseen are coeval!
So the things that are seen and those that are unseen are both age-long, or last thousands of years! Paul needed a few lessons in Greek. And poor, imprecise Matthew. If only he had used proskairos in Matthew 25:46 we would know what he meant, but he used the same adjective he used for our (eternal) life, that is, "age-long" life, whatever that is.
Last edited by karenstricycle on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Personally I think it is embarrassing to explain to an atheist that from an orthodox Evangelical Point of view that God all knowing and all powerful saw the "eternal" demise of 90+% of humanity and went a head with creation.Homer wrote:Most Universalist theories are obliged to embarrass themselves with the translation of the Greek word aionios, although some have given up on this. This is the word which is invariably used about God, The Gift of God, Salvation, our inheritance. Any attempt to whittle down its meaning from "everlasting" to "age-long" or something of the sort only throws a doubt upon the eternity of God and our heavenly life, and often makes nonsense of the scriptures.
Its also embarrassing that we have introduced a "personal" demeaning tone here Homer.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Everything always goes in a downward spiral to nowhere when people start involving their feelings--just use scripture, please.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
People will believe anything as long as it's not found in the Bible.
PhilMan wrote:
I apologize if I implied you and Paidion embarrass yourselves, if that is the remark you find demeaning. Or was it something else?
As for the passage in Second Corinthians, why don't you explain to us how aionios means, in the context, what you insist it means? I noticed you made no attempt. I could show a great numer of other places in the New Testament were translating aionios as "age-long" makes no sense.
I believe the great majority of translations and lexicons knew what the meaning of the word was in the context. Going to the root meaning of a noun to determine what the adjective form means, or what it meant in the Septuagint, or classical Greek, means little compared to how the New Testament writers used it, and they obviously used it time after time as an adjective for that which is eternal and everlasting.
The Universalists can never prove from the meaning of aionios that their doctrine is true; the best they can hope for is to cast doubt on the doctrines of eternal punishment and conditional immortality.
It has long since become obvious that Universalists are greatly influenced by their feelings. There are a great many facts in the scriptures that present difficulties in apologetics (the death of Uzzah, the destruction of children commanded in wars, etc., etc.) but these are facts. Our feelings can change nothing about them. We can attempt to explain why they happened, but in the end we must admit that God is sovereign , and that He did what was right, although we may not understand.
The eternal state of the wicked is not yet a fact, so I can see why you would rather find a way around dealing with it when challenged by atheists.
So you are saying that the interpretation of scripture that is most palatable as an apologetic to atheists is preferable to the most truthful one?Personally I think it is embarrassing to explain to an atheist that from an orthodox Evangelical Point of view that God all knowing and all powerful saw the "eternal" demise of 90+% of humanity and went a head with creation.
I apologize if I implied you and Paidion embarrass yourselves, if that is the remark you find demeaning. Or was it something else?
As for the passage in Second Corinthians, why don't you explain to us how aionios means, in the context, what you insist it means? I noticed you made no attempt. I could show a great numer of other places in the New Testament were translating aionios as "age-long" makes no sense.
I believe the great majority of translations and lexicons knew what the meaning of the word was in the context. Going to the root meaning of a noun to determine what the adjective form means, or what it meant in the Septuagint, or classical Greek, means little compared to how the New Testament writers used it, and they obviously used it time after time as an adjective for that which is eternal and everlasting.
The Universalists can never prove from the meaning of aionios that their doctrine is true; the best they can hope for is to cast doubt on the doctrines of eternal punishment and conditional immortality.
It has long since become obvious that Universalists are greatly influenced by their feelings. There are a great many facts in the scriptures that present difficulties in apologetics (the death of Uzzah, the destruction of children commanded in wars, etc., etc.) but these are facts. Our feelings can change nothing about them. We can attempt to explain why they happened, but in the end we must admit that God is sovereign , and that He did what was right, although we may not understand.
The eternal state of the wicked is not yet a fact, so I can see why you would rather find a way around dealing with it when challenged by atheists.
Last edited by karenstricycle on Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Insistance that "proskairos" in 2 Corinthians 4:18 means "temporal" and thus "aiōios" in the same verse ( because it is contrasted with "proskairos") must mean "eternal" is ludicrous ---- for the following reason:
Firstly, "proskairos" does not mean "temporal", that is, referring to "time" as contrasted with "eternity". Rather, "proskairos" means "temporary".
This fact becomes clear when we observe the other instances in which the word is used in the New Testament.
The first instance is its use in recording our Lord's explanation of His parable of the sower concerning the word of the kingdom falling on rocky places. He said that this is like a person who receives the word with joy,
but he does not have root in himself but is proskairos and tribulation or persecution occurring because of the word is immediately stumbled. Matthew 13:21
Is such a person "temporal" as Homer insists the word means? Does his joy in the word "last through all the ages of time" (temporally)? Or rather does it last for only a short time (temporarily)?
Mark 4:17 also contains the word "proskairos" but since that passage deals with the same parable, I won't repeat the same comments.
Then we have this passage:
In faith, Moses, having become great, denied being called son of Paroah's daughter, rather choosing to be ill treated with God's people than to have enjoyment of sin proskairos. Hebrews 11:24,25.
If Moses had chosen to enjoy sin, would it have lasted for all the ages of time (temporally)? I don't think so. Most translations have "for a season" or "for a while". So again, the meaning is clearly "temporary" or in this case "temporarily" rather than "temporal" or "temporally".
The word that contrasts with "temporary" is "permanent" (not "eternal")
Thus the correct translation of 2Corinthians 4:18 is as follows:
Not considering the things which are seen, but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are permanent.
Things which are permanent are not necessarily eternal. You may have a permanent driver's licence. But you won't have it forever! But you do have it for a longer period of time than you do a temporary driver's licence.
Our lives on this earth are temporary. But the lost will be in Gehenna. That place or state is unseen right now. They will be there permanently, but not forever.
Some things that are permanent are forever. The word "aiōnios" can mean "permanent" or sometimes "going from age to age". The word does not contain in itself a meaning of either "eternal" or "not eternal", but only "permanent" or "going from age to age". It never means "eternal". There are no exceptions. Yet it sometimes applies to that which is eternal.
The word "blue" can apply to things which fly, and also to things which don't fly. But the word "blue" does not mean either "flying" or "non-flying".
Firstly, "proskairos" does not mean "temporal", that is, referring to "time" as contrasted with "eternity". Rather, "proskairos" means "temporary".
This fact becomes clear when we observe the other instances in which the word is used in the New Testament.
The first instance is its use in recording our Lord's explanation of His parable of the sower concerning the word of the kingdom falling on rocky places. He said that this is like a person who receives the word with joy,
but he does not have root in himself but is proskairos and tribulation or persecution occurring because of the word is immediately stumbled. Matthew 13:21
Is such a person "temporal" as Homer insists the word means? Does his joy in the word "last through all the ages of time" (temporally)? Or rather does it last for only a short time (temporarily)?
Mark 4:17 also contains the word "proskairos" but since that passage deals with the same parable, I won't repeat the same comments.
Then we have this passage:
In faith, Moses, having become great, denied being called son of Paroah's daughter, rather choosing to be ill treated with God's people than to have enjoyment of sin proskairos. Hebrews 11:24,25.
If Moses had chosen to enjoy sin, would it have lasted for all the ages of time (temporally)? I don't think so. Most translations have "for a season" or "for a while". So again, the meaning is clearly "temporary" or in this case "temporarily" rather than "temporal" or "temporally".
The word that contrasts with "temporary" is "permanent" (not "eternal")
Thus the correct translation of 2Corinthians 4:18 is as follows:
Not considering the things which are seen, but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are permanent.
Things which are permanent are not necessarily eternal. You may have a permanent driver's licence. But you won't have it forever! But you do have it for a longer period of time than you do a temporary driver's licence.
Our lives on this earth are temporary. But the lost will be in Gehenna. That place or state is unseen right now. They will be there permanently, but not forever.
Some things that are permanent are forever. The word "aiōnios" can mean "permanent" or sometimes "going from age to age". The word does not contain in itself a meaning of either "eternal" or "not eternal", but only "permanent" or "going from age to age". It never means "eternal". There are no exceptions. Yet it sometimes applies to that which is eternal.
The word "blue" can apply to things which fly, and also to things which don't fly. But the word "blue" does not mean either "flying" or "non-flying".
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidion,
You wrote:
So aionios used as an adjective for the state of the saved in the hereafter can not tell us it is eternal, any more than the word "blue" can tell us if something can fly. You insist that aidios is the only Greek word that means eternal or everlasting. So aionios never has the meaning of eternal or everlasting according to Paidion's Lexicon, please tell us how we know our life in Christ is eternal. Aidios is never used as an adjective for that life, but aionios was used adjectively with "life" over 40 times. If aionios never means eternal and aidios is the only word that can, it would seem obvious that there is no promise of eternal life intended.
And neither can we know Christ is an eternal king, whether the Holy Spirit is eternal, whether our redemption is eternal, whether "that house not made with hands" is eternal, whether the New Covenant is eternal, whether our promised inheritance is eternal, or whether our glorified state in the hereafter is eternal, for aionios is used exclusively as an adjective for all of them; never aidios. Again, it would seem none of them are eternal since the only Greek word that means eternal, according to Paidion's Lexicon, is not used as an adjective for any of them!
You've done a whale of a job in calming the fears of the wicked while doing much to destroy the hope of believers.
You wrote:
Your repeated gasconades are no proof at all. There are numerous expert in Greek who contradict you.Some things that are permanent are forever. The word "aiōnios" can mean "permanent" or sometimes "going from age to age". The word does not contain in itself a meaning of either "eternal" or "not eternal", but only "permanent" or "going from age to age". It never means "eternal". There are no exceptions. Yet it sometimes applies to that which is eternal.
So aionios used as an adjective for the state of the saved in the hereafter can not tell us it is eternal, any more than the word "blue" can tell us if something can fly. You insist that aidios is the only Greek word that means eternal or everlasting. So aionios never has the meaning of eternal or everlasting according to Paidion's Lexicon, please tell us how we know our life in Christ is eternal. Aidios is never used as an adjective for that life, but aionios was used adjectively with "life" over 40 times. If aionios never means eternal and aidios is the only word that can, it would seem obvious that there is no promise of eternal life intended.
And neither can we know Christ is an eternal king, whether the Holy Spirit is eternal, whether our redemption is eternal, whether "that house not made with hands" is eternal, whether the New Covenant is eternal, whether our promised inheritance is eternal, or whether our glorified state in the hereafter is eternal, for aionios is used exclusively as an adjective for all of them; never aidios. Again, it would seem none of them are eternal since the only Greek word that means eternal, according to Paidion's Lexicon, is not used as an adjective for any of them!
You've done a whale of a job in calming the fears of the wicked while doing much to destroy the hope of believers.
Last edited by karenstricycle on Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Hey PhilMan,
Did you find this insult embarrassing, or is it acceptable?Insistance that "proskairos" in 2 Corinthians 4:18 means "temporal" and thus "aiōios" in the same verse ( because it is contrasted with "proskairos") must mean "eternal" is ludicrous
Last edited by karenstricycle on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean