My Case for eternal Hell

[Todd]

OK but if we are all resurrected to judgment and we are judged by our works,.....

Steve7150,

But as I said, I don't believe there is a judgment after the resurrection. I believe Christ is on His throne now doing the judging, and all nations are gathered before Him.

Todd

[steve7150]

But as I said, I don't believe there is a judgment after the resurrection. I believe Christ is on His throne now doing the judging, and all nations are gathered before Him.







OK but if Christ is judging now how do the results of the judging take place. I mean the mechanics of his judgments such as the wrath of God right now, how is it executed by God?
I understand Sodom & Gemorrah perished and there was a flood and various other judgments on nations or peoples , but how are individuals impacted by the wrath of God in this life?

[Todd]

OK but if Christ is judging now how do the results of the judging take place. I mean the mechanics of his judgments such as the wrath of God right now, how is it executed by God?
I understand Sodom & Gemorrah perished and there was a flood and various other judgments on nations or peoples , but how are individuals impacted by the wrath of God in this life?

Steve7150,

Sin carries with it guilt, shame, anxiety, pain, trouble, corruption and sometimes death; this is God's wrath, this is the Lake of Fire. The clearest scriptures on this are Rom 1:18-32, Rom 13:1-6 and John 3:36. All of these indicate God pouring out his wrath in this life. Notice in the following scripture, Paul says that these deserve death (not hell), stating that this is "God's righteous decree."

Rom 1:32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Also notice in this scripture that the penalty for carnal-mindedness is corruption, not hell.

Gal 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Todd

[Ambassador791]

You raise the question whether a man can pay for his own sins in this life. This is an interesting question. Let's take the example of a man convicted of theft. He goes to prison and serves a full term of 10 years. He is then released. We would say that he has paid his debt to society. To me, this is a perfect example of being "rewarded according to our works."

Think about a man that rapes a young girl , then gets beat by her father (almost to death). Should he go free? He still broke laws against the government.He should not expect the government to look the other way. We sin against our fellow man, and sometimes we get punished. Either way, God sees this as an offence to himself. Part of what God does not like about our offences to others, is that they are made in Gods image.

But here is the question at hand; is this man to suffer additional punishment in the afterlife? I say no. I

.

Heb 9/27:And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

I say that this proves that after this life comes the real judgment. You may try to say that the "death" spoken of here only talks about our spiritual death on earth, life apart from God. O.k, but what does "after that, the judgment" mean? Catch what I´m saying? Even if you interprete "death" here as the judgment man receives on earth while in sin, you still have another "judgment after that". I think that this is a problem for your view.

You continued on to say that this is not God's punishment, but I say, that is exactly what it is.

In a sence, I can agree that God foreordained that man would stumble over his own sins. This could be a type of Judgment, but like Heb 9/27, there are many verses that indicate that there is another judgment to come. Jesus ´parable about being reconciled to the man you have wronged BEFORE the judgment. In your view, there is no “before the judgment”, there is only “during” and maybe “after“ (I say maybe , cause I don´t know what you believe on that)

Acts 13/46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life

Notice that in this life, we judge ourselves worthy of death or life. God´s Judgment comes after. A hard pill to swallow, but if it were true that the judgment is only here and now: “lets just live for today, do what ever we want, because, after all, if this is the Judgment, it´s not so bad, actually I´m kinda enjoying this”.Notice that many psalmists point out that it seems like the powerful sinner that takes advantage of the weak, gets off easy in this life. Some don´t seem to suffer at all. Many sinners live great happy lives. The psalmist finds rest in the idea that “God will judge one day”.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

This verse seems to indicate that God's wrath is being poured out (in this life) on those who reject Christ. God doesn't wait unit the afterlife to punish.

I believe that man has God´s wrath hanging over him, ready to crush him, but God is patient:

Romans 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

I have always understood this to mean: God, having chosen to make his wrath known, has also chosen to be patient with the objects of his wrath, in order to show his mercy to the remnant.

Like with sodom and gomorra, God, having patience with the ones he wants to destroy, is doing so, to show mercy to Lot. I believe that God has not sent fire down on earth because there is a remnant here.

2 pet 3 :6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Notice that God is waiting to unleash his wrath and that if Gods wrath had already been revealed on earth…none of us would be here to talk about it. God is patient with the ungodly and wants a remnant, that is why his actualized wrath has not been release.

Romans 3/24-26...and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



It seems that this is saying that before being in Jesus, sins were not punished.

[Todd]

...there are many verses that indicate that there is another judgment to come.

Ambassador791,

As I said in my reply to Steve7150, there are several scriptures with wording that make it difficult to reconcile with this view. The passages you mention which point to a future judgment are the main ones. However, I expect that when Christ returns He will have some unfinished business with those still living at the time. It could be that these scriptures are referring to the execution of His wrath upon them when He returns. I don't know for sure, but I must point out that, if I am correct, these people are still living. I still find no clear evidence in scripture of post-resurrection punishment.

Think of 2 Pet 3:6-9, which you quoted, and 2 Thess 1:5-10. There is no evidence in these two passages that the punishment described is executed after the resurrection; it just describes a "coming of the Lord" accompanied by great destruction and devastation. There have been many times in the Bible described as the "coming of the Lord," such as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. One could argue that the demise of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq was a "coming of the Lord."

Todd

[Douglas]

There are not any scriptures that I am aware of that explicitly state that God will punish after death or the resurrection. The ones that are commonly thought to teach a post-resurrection judgment/punishment, I believe can be understood to apply to this life.

Heb 9:27 "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation."
I am currious how you reconcile this verse with your view brother. As it appears that the "to die once" would most likely be physical death, at least I would think so. And then to face judgment. Do you try to understand the "to die once" in a spiritual sense? Which I have to admit is hard for me to make sense of, as to trying to define when a person dies spiritually, once. For your view to be considered you have to at least have some explanation that must satisfy you regarding this verse I would assume.

Thanks.
Doug

[Todd]

Heb 9:27 "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation."
I am currious how you reconcile this verse with your view brother. As it appears that the "to die once" would most likely be physical death, at least I would think so. And then to face judgment. Do you try to understand the "to die once" in a spiritual sense?

Douglas,

No, I do not see "to die once" in this verse in a spiritual sense; that would be a stretch I think. It most likely refers to physical death. This scripture indeed is a tough one to reconcile with this view. I try to keep my posts short and be as concise as possible, but to answer this question requires a little more explanation.

In one sense, God has been sitting in judgment from the beginning. We know this because He chose to intervene with blessings and punishment throughout the Old Testament. But since the Day of Pentecost and the Advent of the Holy Spirit, Christ is sitting in Judgment and things have changed. John the Baptist warned of this; speaking of the coming of the Holy Spirit John said, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come,..."

Matt 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. F10 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The Holy Spirit and Fire - the Advent of the Holy Spirit is a two-edged sword. One is life-giving, the other is a firey condemnation. Both are realized in this life; this is not speaking of something that happens after the resurrection.

Gal 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Simply stated, we reap what we sow. Christ sits in judgment and the Holy Spirit acts in realtime to either bless works of righteousness or condemn sin. Jesus told us this was the mission of the Spirit.

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

All of the judgment passages in the New Testament that speak of "rewarding according to our works," I see as reaping what we sow through the work of the Holy Spirit in this life. This is how I see passages like: the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:31-46), the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11-15), the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10), life or condemnation (John 5:24-29), God's righeous judgment (Rom 2:5-11).

However, there are a few passages, like the one you quoted, they may be speaking of something else. One possibility is the status one may have in the resurrection. One thing we know is that there is an order to the resurrection mentioned in both 1 Cor 15:23 and also in Rom 8:18-23. The different groups in the resurrection may have a different status. We do know that the Christians will reign with Christ (2 Ti 2:12). It is fair to ask, who are they going to reign over? One thing important to notice is that the verse you quoted (Heb 9:27) does not mention anything about punishment, although I suppose some may think it is implied.

To me, it has become a matter of elimination of the various views of Hell. I have rejected eternal torment for reasons I stated earlier in this thread, I also have serious issues with Conditional Immortality although it seems more likely than ET. The Christian Universalist view which still includes a limited post-resurrection punishment is possible, but it still contains some of the same problems as the ET view; also the whole idea of repenting in hell seems unlikely. The view I espouse, which has been held by a number of various Christian sects throughout the years, seems most likely. The actual Truth may contain facets that are foreign to all these views.

Todd

[steve7150]

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

All of the judgment passages in the New Testament that speak of "rewarding according to our works," I see as reaping what we sow through the work of the Holy Spirit in this life. This is how I see passages like: the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:31-46), the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11-15), the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10), life or condemnation (John 5:24-29), God's righeous judgment (Rom 2:5-11).








I'm not clear where it says the Holy Spirit convicts any unbelievers of anything other then not believing in Christ (John 16.8) , it convicts the believer of righteousness (John 16.8) and judges the devil also in (John 16.8). Yes unbelievers will reap corruption and bad things which are good verses but none of them exclude judgment day. It's also not clear to me that this corruption is from anything other then being part of this fallen world as opposed to a specific judgment from God. Also I don't see where it's a mutually exclusive scenerio as the epistles never really speak of hell as far as i know but that seems reserved for after the resurrection of everyone. The judgment of the lake of fire is a specific judgment by Christ based on "works" for a unbelievers entire lifetime and is executed after they are raised from the dead. As far as i can see the natural reading is that people lived then they died, then they are raised for judgment and they will be in the presense of the lamb (Rev 14) in the lake of fire. Therefore the corruption in this life seems to be from the effects of living in a fallen world and not knowing God.

[steve7150]

Christ is sitting in Judgment and things have changed. John the Baptist warned of this; speaking of the coming of the Holy Spirit John said, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come,..."
Hi Todd,





I wanted to mention that Christ sitting at God's right hand i believe is symbolic of him resting and not currectly judging but patiently waiting and resting until judgment day IMO. Also the warnings from John the Baptist about the wrath to come could be an allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem 70AD.

[Todd]

I wanted to mention that Christ sitting at God's right hand i believe is symbolic of him resting and not currectly judging but patiently waiting and resting until judgment day IMO. Also the warnings from John the Baptist about the wrath to come could be an allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem 70AD.

Hi Steve7150,

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I fully acknowledge that you could be correct, but at this time I don't see it this way. I just wanted to point out that there is another view which should be considered on this subject; there has been much discussion of Eternal Torment (ET), Conditional Immortality (CI), and Christian Universalism (CU) which some prefer to call Universal Reconciliation (UR). This other view some might call the No-heller view, but I think it would be more appropriate to call it the Hell on Earth (HE) view.

I apologize to Ambassador for hijacking his thread.

Todd