Universalism and the Character of God

[_Rick_C]

edit

[Guest]

Rick,

Can you honestly say you are doing your best to represent correctly what people say they believe?

The "universalist gospel" teaches that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. That He was delivered up for our transgressions, so that we might be delivered from our sin. That He was buried, and that He rose again the third day. That He has exalted to the highest position next to His Father. That He will return one day to judge the living and the dead.

All will be resurrected, and judged according to how they lived their lives.

That is not how you have (mis)-represented what the Universalist believes.

I desire an honest, respectful dialog.

I am willing to admit my current beliefs may be wrong. I am more than willing to admit I make mistakes, and my wisdom is fallible.

Mike

[Guest]

That this would go on at this forum is a major disappointment to me.



Mike, i don't post here expecting to change Rick or Homer's mind as they say they are opposed on principal. That is, their own principals. But i'm just hoping some open minded people consider the scriptural evidence that God intends to reconcile at least most and maybe all in His own time.

Hi Steve,
I appreciate you saying this. I for one have enjoyed this conversation and have been following with great interest. At certain points I considered entering the dialog, but the points that I intended to make were clearly stated by you and other CUs in the conversation. I’m not completely convinced in the direction of universalism (getting closer), but it is safe to say the I do not believe in eternal torment.

I have been disappointed in the recent tone of the thread by Rick, and Bob. I was sad to see Danny drop out of the conversation but I certainly understand. I hope the conversation continues.

Keep up the good work!

Robin

[Guest]

Hi Steve,
I appreciate you saying this. I for one have enjoyed this conversation and have been following with great interest. At certain points I considered entering the dialog, but the points that I intended to make were clearly stated by you and other CUs in the conversation. I’m not completely convinced in the direction of universalism (getting closer), but it is safe to say the I do not believe in eternal torment.

I have been disappointed in the recent tone of the thread by Rick, and Bob. I was sad to see Danny drop out of the conversation but I certainly understand. I hope the conversation continues.

Keep up the good work!

Robin



Robin, Thank you very much i really appreciate encouraging feedback.

[Guest]

I have been disappointed in the recent tone of the thread by Rick, and Bob. I was sad to see Danny drop out of the conversation but I certainly understand. I hope the conversation continues.



Danny, if you're out there i also hope you post again not to debate, but for the benefit of others who are not committed to a paradigm in advance but will weigh all the evidence.

[Guest]

He said "EVERYONE who hears the Gospel (while alive, dead people are deaf) and who calls on His name will be saved," and NO MORE & NO LESS.


Rick, you're contradicting yourself because you claim that unbelievers are eternally in torment in hell yet now you claim they are dead and deaf. Talk about shifting sands my friend?

So the question is, can the deaf hear?

"In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the BOOK. And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.
The HUMBLE also shall increase their joy in the Lord. And the POOR shall rejoice .
In the Holy One of Israel.
For the TERRIBLE ONE is brought to nothing.
The scornful one is consumed.
And all who watch for iniquity are cut off." Isa 29.18-20


So according to Isaiah the deaf will hear in that day and the blind will see in that day.
What day? IMHO this is a picture of judgment day when the great majority of mankind will see and hear CHRIST for the first time. Notice the poor and humble will have joy which sounds similar to the beatitudes.
The TERRIBLE ONE who i think is Satan will be brought to nothing because he will be CONSUMED. Does this sound like the lake of fire?
If some still hate God then perhaps they won't be saved, perhaps they will be in the LOF for as long as God deems.
Isaiah says everyone will hear the words of the book. Which book? IMO it means the gospels , that is the book mentioned on judgment day when it says "and books are opened", i think these books are not a book of works but the gospels being opened and read to the DEAF and BLIND.

[Guest]

Rick, you're contradicting yourself because you claim that unbelievers are eternally in torment in hell yet now you claim they are dead and deaf. Talk about shifting sands my friend?



Rick, In another thread i just read you all but believe in conditional immortality which i'm glad to hear. But like Paidion i sure did'nt get that impression from your posts, but be that as it may i'm glad to hear it.
Now before you get hot and bothered i know you're about to tell me "don't think this means i'm ever gonna believe CU" , OK i saved you the trouble my friend.
Just for the record my position is somewhere between CI and CU, i don't insist everyone must be saved, only that i hope everyone has the same chance to know Christ and bow the knee.

[Guest]

In rick's defense, i dont see anything disrepectful at all in his posts. he is defending a position that is probably held by 99% of christians, and even Rick doesnt believe in eternal torment.

regarding the dead not being able to hear, not to misrepresent what Rick was intending, but it would seem that "unsaved" people who are dead, despite being conscious somewhere, are not able to hear what is being preached here on earth. perhaps this totally misrepresents rick's meaning, if so, sorry about that.

this is an extremely important issue, so i dont have a problem with a little heat in the discussion. read galatians for an example of some heat. at a minimum, the bible is extremely ambiguous about the possibility that universalism is correct. all the scriptures pointed out dont specifically say that persons can be saved after they die, and for something this important it seems that there would be, if in fact that is the truth. wouldnt Jesus, or one of the apostles, simply said something like:

"listen-- it's best if you accept the gospel truth while you are alive. you'd live a more abundant life, and you'll avoid some nasty consequences when you die. But ultimately, you will come to accept the truth, even after you are dead, and will enter into God's rest with all of humanity."

TK

[Guest]

"listen-- it's best if you accept the gospel truth while you are alive. you'd live a more abundant life, and you'll avoid some nasty consequences when you die. But ultimately, you will come to accept the truth, even after you are dead, and will enter into God's rest with all of humanity."



He did say that they would face gehenna which is judgment and why would anyone want to face that at all? He told them what they needed to know.
The real issue to me is not his hearers but the 99% of humanity who did'nt hear him when he or his Apostles preached or for hundereds of years afterwards.

[Guest]

First, I have to say you do this often when you're backed into a corner. You just bail out. When you do this I assume my point or points are correct and your ideas are wrong since you have no rebuttal!

Go right ahead with your assumption. Once again, for you, it's all about "winning". But I am not going to make a rebuttal of the ludicrous "proof" that not all will be saved because dead bodies cannot hear the gospel.

If it comforts you to think you have won, go ahead and bask in that comfort. As for me, I have no desire to win. My purpose in posting in this forum is, together with other seekers, to search deeper for truth and reality.

Scriptural evidence of the reconciliation of all to God has been abundantly offered. You have not shown from your contextual exposition that these scriptures have meanings other than the obvious meanings. It seems you simply have chosen not to believe the scriptural statements about the reconciliation of all. So you try to divert the discussion by attacking straw men, for example, trying to set forth the falsehood that reconciliationists hold to two different methods of salvation. You have continued with that assertion in spite of denials of the same by reconciliationists on this forum. To the best of my knowledge, not a single reconciliationist holds to that belief.

In conclusion, I've "bailed out", not because I've been backed into a corner. Your weak and petty so-called arguments have no efficacy in that regard. I've "bailed out" because I see the fruitlessness of continuing a discussion with one who doesn't appropriately respond to the points made, but proceeds in a fashion which is just a breath away from a personal attack.

But go ahead and "assume that your point or points are correct." I am interested only in the truth.