Calvinism and Universalism

[steve7150]

When seen though the human perspective one might be inclined to think that God was persuaded, or convinced in some fashion, but how can this be when God knows the end from the beginning? Didn't God know in advance that Abraham would ask a righteous man in Sodom? Didn't God know in advance that Moses would plead for the life of the Children of Israel? Likewise, didn't God know in advance that Hezekiah would ask for more years of life?



This sounds similar to the issue against Calvinism in which there are many warnings to believers not to fall away yet Calvinists say these warnings are so that the elect don't fall away. Yet if they are really elect how could they fall away.
Here we are told God knows the beginning from the end yet particularly in the OT there are numerous verses indicating God changed his mind, was surprised,disapointed, expressed regret, got angry at disobedience as if it was unexpected etc etc.
Yet he apparently foreknew Peter would deny him three times.

[RND]

This sounds similar to the issue against Calvinism in which there are many warnings to believers not to fall away yet Calvinists say these warnings are so that the elect don't fall away. Yet if they are really elect how could they fall away.

Hey, those are excellent points but consider that just because God has :foreknowledge" of everything doesn't mean that He is directing things.

Here we are told God knows the beginning from the end yet particularly in the OT there are numerous verses indicating God changed his mind, was surprised, disapointed, expressed regret, got angry at disobedience as if it was unexpected etc etc.
Yet he apparently foreknew Peter would deny him three times.

The fact that God possesses emotion and displays it is really more evidence that we are created in His image. Every human emotion, nature, trait or substance of character can be said to be an "image" of the things God possesses. Yet in saying that doen't deny the foreknowledge that God possesses. I think it, in a way, solidifies it.

[Paidion]

If God knew a fore time what would happen was God persuaded or was the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded?

That's a might big If!

So big, in fact, that it's impossible! It's like saying, "If God can create a stone so large that He can't lift it, is He able to lift it?"

When seen though the human perspective one might be inclined to think that God was persuaded, or convinced in some fashion one might be inclined to think that God was persuaded, or convinced in some fashion, ...

We were created in God's image, so the "human perspective" is not so far from God's perspective.

...but how can this be when God knows the end from the beginning?

What does that have to do with anything? Or do you think it means He knows the end from the beginning of everything that happens? As the saying goes, a text without a context, is a pretext.

First, it doesn't say He KNOWS the end from the beginning; it says He DECLARES the end from the beginning. It is clear from the context that He is speaking of His plan, the things He intends to do. Even a man can know the end from the beginning of his own plans, and tell people about what he intends to do before he carries them out.

When God is going to do something, He can declare what He intends to do before He does it, and nothing can stop Him.

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. Isaiah 46:9,10

[RND]

That's a might big If!

So big, in fact, that it's impossible! It's like saying, "If God can create a stone so large that He can't lift it, is He able to lift it?"

How so? God "spoke" the universe into existence. Other than force people to love Him I doubt there is anything he can't to.

We were created in God's image, so the "human perspective" is not so far from God's perspective.

I believe I said as much.

What does that have to do with anything? Or do you think it means He knows the end from the beginning of everything that happens? As the saying goes, a text without a context, is a pretext.

It has everything to do with the entirety of the conversation. His very words cause things to consist and hold together.

First, it doesn't say He KNOWS the end from the beginning; it says He DECLARES the end from the beginning. It is clear from the context that He is speaking of His plan, the things He intends to do. Even a man can know the end from the beginning of his own plans, and tell people about what he intends to do before he carries them out.

Wasn't creation part of His plan? However, with regard to your point about man declaring his own plans, man cannot know the end from the beginning, that who make man omnipotent. That's why we are told to plan for what we are given each day. That's not to say we are not to have plans and goals for tomorrow but we are only given one day at a time.

James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

When God is going to do something, He can declare what He intends to do before He does it, and nothing can stop Him.

Yet this is not so with a man.

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. Isaiah 46:9,10

According to the definitions for the word declaring I think this means so much more than God's determination in carrying out His plan.

[steve7150]

RND wrote:
If God knew a fore time what would happen was God persuaded or was the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded?




If the writer of 2 Kings misunderstood then perhaps the gospel writers misunderstood about the resurrection?
Maybe Moses was mistaken that the burning bush was talking.

[RND]

RND wrote:
If God knew a fore time what would happen was God persuaded or was the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded?

If the writer of 2 Kings misunderstood then perhaps the gospel writers misunderstood about the resurrection?

Wasn't the resurrection real? Besides, I'm struggling mightily to see how this has anything to do with whether God was persuaded or if the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded. I don't think God was "persuaded" regarding Hezekiah simply because God knew a fore time what He would do regarding Hezekiah and His request.

Look at it this way. A parent has in his mind what he will do with a child that misbehaves or achieves a certain goal. This is fore knowledge. "If" this happens with my child then I'll do this. Same way a computer works. God obviously works the same way.

Maybe Moses was mistaken that the burning bush was talking.

I doubt that.

[steve7150]

Wasn't the resurrection real? Besides, I'm struggling mightily to see how this has anything to do with whether God was persuaded or if the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded. I don't think God was "persuaded" regarding Hezekiah simply because God knew a fore time what He would do regarding Hezekiah and His request.



RND, the writer of 2nd Kings states that God was persuaded but you are sure that could'nt be possible therefore the author must have been persuaded to believe God was persuaded. The reason you give is that God foreknows everything, so can you prove it?
As Paidion said the verse you referenced before is that "God DECLARES the beginning from the end" but that can refer to his grand plan , not necessarily to every detail. It also can mean that God will intervene to make everything turn out his way not necessarily that he foreknows every detail.
So can you prove God actually foreknows every detail of the future?

[RND]

RND, the writer of 2nd Kings states that God was persuaded but you are sure that could'nt be possible therefore the author must have been persuaded to believe God was persuaded. The reason you give is that God foreknows everything, so can you prove it?

As Paidion said the verse you referenced before is that "God DECLARES the beginning from the end" but that can refer to his grand plan , not necessarily to every detail. It also can mean that God will intervene to make everything turn out his way not necessarily that he foreknows every detail.
So can you prove God actually foreknows every detail of the future?

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

foreknowledge = prognosis = from proginwskw - proginosko 4267; forethought:--foreknowledge.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

foreordained/foreknow = proginosko = from pro - pro 4253 and ginwskw - ginosko 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

If God didn't know what sin would do before He created the world why did God make a plan to eradicate sin before the foundation of the world? Answer: He did know what sin would do before there was sin, hence the plan of salvation through Christ.

Of course there's always Job 38-42 if one has any questions about what God can do. Job 38. Ouch!

[steve7150]

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

foreknowledge = prognosis = from proginwskw - proginosko 4267; forethought:--foreknowledge.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.





RND, Granted God's foreknowledge is referenced but it refers to general events like man would sin therefore a Savior would be needed and a certain class of people would believe and by believing in Christ they become elect. I'm not a Calvinist therefore i don't believe God elects individual people to be saved. In Acts 2.23 "the determinate council" of God sounds more like God actually caused the events to happen rather then just foreknowledge. Yes God foreknew Adam would sin so Christ would be needed and since God can see the heart of man God knew or perhaps determined by intervention that Christ would be crucified since in Isa 53 it says it pleased God to have him bruised.
So this type of general foreknowledge about the big plan is not compelling evidence that God can foreknow every detail about the future of everything IMHO.

[RND]

RND, Granted God's foreknowledge is referenced but it refers to general events like man would sin therefore a Savior would be needed and a certain class of people would believe and by believing in Christ they become elect. I'm not a Calvinist therefore i don't believe God elects individual people to be saved.

I'm not a Calvinist either, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe God knows the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

In Acts 2.23 "the determinate council" of God sounds more like God actually caused the events to happen rather then just foreknowledge.

Not to me.

Yes God foreknew Adam would sin so Christ would be needed and since God can see the heart of man God knew or perhaps determined by intervention that Christ would be crucified since in Isa 53 it says it pleased God to have him bruised.
So this type of general foreknowledge about the big plan is not compelling evidence that God can foreknow every detail about the future of everything IMHO.

OK for you then, but to me it is.

If God knew the future of sin before anything was ever created, including Satan, and developed a plan for correcting this problem then to me it is conclusive evidence that He knows every minute detail of a man's life and death.