How would you explain Paul's statements in this regard?
1 Cor 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The Greek word for "natural" is not used here. It is the Greek word for "soulish". I do admit that the English word "physical" is derived from this word. So, yes. Paul is contrasting the mortal physical body with immortal "spiritual" body. But this doesn't mean that the immortal body is "spirtual" in the sense of being a spirit. It is spiritual when compared to the mortal physical body, but is not a spirit.
Todd, Paul may be contrasting "natural" body with what Jesus probably had which is a "supernatural" body not a spirit body.
A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Suzana,
You quoted Glenn Peoples, indicating you think you agree with him:
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
If the word hell here used by Jesus means no more than the Valley of Hinnom, and is not a figurative word for the place of punishment, then what was Jesus point? Surely He meant to frighten and alarm those who heard Him. If Peoples' view is correct, then Jesus would seem to be threatening them with cremation after death rather than a burial. That would not be much of a warning.
And if Peoples is correct, then the punishment for sin is born equally by all: the innocent two year old, the most righteous Christian, Hitler, Pol Pot, et al, all are punished the same, for we all die. No, it is not that equal, for some wicked men die peacefully in their sleep while children suffer and die horribly.
Perhaps there is more to Peoples' view than you posted.
You quoted Glenn Peoples, indicating you think you agree with him:
Jesus said:I don't believe this will happen. In fact I think it introduces considerable confusion over what the punishment for sin really is. The punishment is death, or loss of life. So no amount of other kinds of unpleasantness will do anything at all as far as justice is concerned. If the annihilationist case draws so much strength (and it does) from the biblical proclamation that the wages of sin is death, we really undermine that strength by suggesting that the lost might receive the wages of sin before they are finally destroyed. This just caves into the traditionalist notion that the wages of sin is extended suffering.
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
If the word hell here used by Jesus means no more than the Valley of Hinnom, and is not a figurative word for the place of punishment, then what was Jesus point? Surely He meant to frighten and alarm those who heard Him. If Peoples' view is correct, then Jesus would seem to be threatening them with cremation after death rather than a burial. That would not be much of a warning.
And if Peoples is correct, then the punishment for sin is born equally by all: the innocent two year old, the most righteous Christian, Hitler, Pol Pot, et al, all are punished the same, for we all die. No, it is not that equal, for some wicked men die peacefully in their sleep while children suffer and die horribly.
Perhaps there is more to Peoples' view than you posted.
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Hi, Homer - This is the full quote:Homer wrote:Perhaps there is more to Peoples' view than you posted.
For context, it is in this thread: Conditional Immortality Linksby Glenn on Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:07 pm
Suzana wrote:I can understand that, & that it would be desirable to have all the dead being raised, judged and then (the wicked) annihilated, but I still don’t see the need or validity of them being tortured first.
I agree entirely, Suzanna.
(By the way, hi everyone - Glenn Peoples here)
Edward Fudge says (in person) that his take on annihilationism allows for the possibility of the lost being punished to whatever extent justice requires before they are no more - but his view doesn't require it. It just leaves open that possibility.
I don't believe this will happen. In fact I think it introduces considerable confusion over what the punishment for sin really is. The punishment is death, or loss of life. So no amount of other kinds of unpleasantness will do anything at all as far as justice is concerned. If the annihilationist case draws so much strength (and it does) from the biblical proclamation that the wages of sin is death, we really undermine that strength by suggesting that the lost might receive the wages of sin before they are finally destroyed. This just caves into the traditionalist notion that the wages of sin is extended suffering.
We had been discussing the idea of possible punishment prior to annihilation.
Regarding the verse in Luke, I find the parallel in Matthew sheds more light. It seems to warn of possible total permanent destruction as opposed to mere temporary physical death of the body.
Mat 10:28 (YLT) `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
This is one of the verses that seems to favour conditional immortality rather than UR.
Suzana
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Hi Suzana,
You wrote:
But Matthew 10:28 does not preclude punishment combined with annihilation, or even the idea of annihilation by punishment. When Jesus was whipped, I understand that the number of lashes was limited in order not to kill Him by this form of punishment. But it was understood that he was to be punished to death on the cross.
Matthew 27:20-22 (New King James Version)
20. But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21. The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
22. Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
The Greek word apollumi was used by Matthew and translated "destroy" in both 10:28 and 27:20. There might also be room for an unending state in the word as it can also mean "lose" or "lost". Paul used it of people who were still alive:
2 Corinthians 4:3 (King James Version)
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost (apollumi):
You wrote:
(my underline)We had been discussing the idea of possible punishment prior to annihilation.
Regarding the verse in Luke, I find the parallel in Matthew sheds more light. It seems to warn of possible total permanent destruction as opposed to mere temporary physical death of the body.
Mat 10:28 (YLT) `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
But Matthew 10:28 does not preclude punishment combined with annihilation, or even the idea of annihilation by punishment. When Jesus was whipped, I understand that the number of lashes was limited in order not to kill Him by this form of punishment. But it was understood that he was to be punished to death on the cross.
Matthew 27:20-22 (New King James Version)
20. But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21. The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
22. Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
The Greek word apollumi was used by Matthew and translated "destroy" in both 10:28 and 27:20. There might also be room for an unending state in the word as it can also mean "lose" or "lost". Paul used it of people who were still alive:
2 Corinthians 4:3 (King James Version)
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost (apollumi):
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Sorry Suzana, I forget that not everyone knows what EO suppose to mean. It means Eastern Orthodox.Suzana wrote:I'm feeling a bit dim this morning. What does EO stand for?Jim wrote:Why not adopted the EO view of hell? Everyone is raised, those who hate God will be tormented within because of His great love for them leading, while those who love God will rejoice and praise God.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
In respect to Matthew 10:28,God could destroy the whole person forever like the Annihilationist believes, but this verse does not mean He will, any more then He could have made the "rocks cry out" as Jesus rode the young colt into the East Gate of the walled city of Jerusalem, but didn't.
One should readily take note that the threat of 10:28 is not about eternal torment but destruction. “Destroy” is the English word translated from the Greek word apolummi. The word does not mean “torture” or “to cause someone to suffer.” Gehenna, just outside of Jerusalem, was the trash dump, where fire burned continuously, but the garbage, including human remains of criminals were dumped there and destroyed. With the fall of Jerusalem, judgment came and the Temple and those who were killed by the Romans were thrown in this same Gehenna.
I believed the unbeliever does not go through eternal torture but are, instead, possibly painfully for some, go through a destruction of all that is within them that is not of God. The idea of the lost being tossed into the "Lake of Fire" in other verses, could also be a process of refinement where in fact in one verse Jesus Himself is there: Rev. 14, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water… He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." The hour of judgment certainly could be referring to the fall of Jerusalem in 70A.D., especially if the Book of the Revelation was written prior to this judgment has many are now believing.
Grace, Bubba
One should readily take note that the threat of 10:28 is not about eternal torment but destruction. “Destroy” is the English word translated from the Greek word apolummi. The word does not mean “torture” or “to cause someone to suffer.” Gehenna, just outside of Jerusalem, was the trash dump, where fire burned continuously, but the garbage, including human remains of criminals were dumped there and destroyed. With the fall of Jerusalem, judgment came and the Temple and those who were killed by the Romans were thrown in this same Gehenna.
I believed the unbeliever does not go through eternal torture but are, instead, possibly painfully for some, go through a destruction of all that is within them that is not of God. The idea of the lost being tossed into the "Lake of Fire" in other verses, could also be a process of refinement where in fact in one verse Jesus Himself is there: Rev. 14, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water… He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." The hour of judgment certainly could be referring to the fall of Jerusalem in 70A.D., especially if the Book of the Revelation was written prior to this judgment has many are now believing.
Grace, Bubba
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Welcome aboard, Bubba!
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Welcome Bubba!
Perhaps you can explain Jesus words a little better:
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Again I ask, what do you think Jesus intended when He said they could be cast into hell after they have been killed? Do you think Jesus was warning them with intent to freighten or alarm them? If so, how would being thrown into Gehenna post-mortem be a cause for any concern on their part?
Perhaps you can explain Jesus words a little better:
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Again I ask, what do you think Jesus intended when He said they could be cast into hell after they have been killed? Do you think Jesus was warning them with intent to freighten or alarm them? If so, how would being thrown into Gehenna post-mortem be a cause for any concern on their part?
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Homer,
These verses in my opinion are the same scenario as was in Mt.10:28, which I commented on. “Be not afraid of them that kill the body…” which would be the Roman army that would soon sweep through the land of Israel. God in His sovereignty brought this army in judgment upon a nation who did not realize the coming of His Son and in fact crucified Him. “Fear Him” who after the natural fires of the dump site have long cease burning, will still be in the hands of the one whom will still bring about efficacious correction. In the west, we tend to over literalize judgment genre literature in respect to the New Testament, when a review of the Old Testament would bring to our knowledge that Jesus’ audience knew exactly whom and what He was referring to with the word Gehenna, which was that their judgment would be imminent, if they believe His words or not is not relevant. Samuel Dawson writes on Gehenna and Luke in particular:
Lk. 12.4-5
“This is the fifth time Jesus used Gehenna, when he said:
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell (Gehenna-SGD): yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here Jesus taught the same thing John taught in Mt. 3.10-12, that only a divine being has the power to cast someone into unquenchable fire. A human can kill you. A divine being can imminently bring an unstoppable national judgment in which a divinely ordained religion would be brought to an end. Notice also that Jesus said that one would be cast into Gehenna after he has been killed (Lk. 12.4-5) and that God can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna.
Notice also in verse 49 that Jesus said:
I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
The fiery judgment of which Jesus spoke was not far off in time and place, but imminent and earthly. In verse 56, Jesus noted that the judgment of which he spoke was imminent, for he said:
Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time?
The word for earth in both these verses is gen, the standard word for land or ground, not necessarily the planet, which we might think. Thayer defined the word as:
1. arable land, 2. the ground, the earth as a standing place, 3. land, as opposed to sea or water, 4. the earth as a whole, the world. (p. 114)
This is the word used in Mt. 2.6 (the land of Judea), Mt. 2.20 (the land of Israel), Mt. 10.15 (the land of Sodom and Gomorrah), Mt. 11.24 (the land of Sodom), Mt. 14.34 (the land of Gennesaret), Jn. 3.22 (the land of Judea), Ac. 7.3 (into the land which I shall show thee), Ac. 7.6 (seed should sojourn in a strange land), Ac. 7.11 (a dearth over all the land of Egypt), etc. Thus, Jesus again spoke of imminent fiery destruction on the land of Israel, just as Malachi and John the Baptist said he would announce.
Mt. 18.9, Mk. 9.43-45
These verses contain the sixth, seventh, eight, and ninth times Jesus used the word Gehenna. These are verses like Mt. 5.29-30, which speak of it being better to enter life or the kingdom without some members of one's body rather than going into Gehenna with a whole body. However, we want to pay special attention to Mark's account, because in it, Jesus further described Gehenna:
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire [emphasis mine-SGD].
Notice that Jesus specifically said what's coming in Gehenna-unquenchable fire. John the Baptist said he would baptize with unquenchable fire, not necessarily fire that would burn unendingly, but which would not be quenched. Unquenchable fire is unstoppable! It's fiery destruction brought about by a divine being. In Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised such a national judgment on Judah:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.
Of course, Babylon fulfilled these words in the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. when the Jews were carried off into captivity. The fire was not quenched, but Jerusalem didn't burn unendingly from 586 B.C. on.
Likewise, in Amos 5.6, God had promised a similar judgment on the northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians, fulfilled in 722 B.C. when they were carried into captivity:
Seek the Lord that you may live, lest He break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it consume with none to quench it for Bethel.
The unquenchable fire which consumed Israel was unstoppable, but no one believes it's still burning unendingly. Thus, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire in Mk. 9.43, he used language that his Jewish listeners would associate with the national judgments God had brought on nations in the Old Testament. In fact, they had never heard such language used any other way! Of course, we have, but not from the teaching of the Bible. “
Grace, Bubba
These verses in my opinion are the same scenario as was in Mt.10:28, which I commented on. “Be not afraid of them that kill the body…” which would be the Roman army that would soon sweep through the land of Israel. God in His sovereignty brought this army in judgment upon a nation who did not realize the coming of His Son and in fact crucified Him. “Fear Him” who after the natural fires of the dump site have long cease burning, will still be in the hands of the one whom will still bring about efficacious correction. In the west, we tend to over literalize judgment genre literature in respect to the New Testament, when a review of the Old Testament would bring to our knowledge that Jesus’ audience knew exactly whom and what He was referring to with the word Gehenna, which was that their judgment would be imminent, if they believe His words or not is not relevant. Samuel Dawson writes on Gehenna and Luke in particular:
Lk. 12.4-5
“This is the fifth time Jesus used Gehenna, when he said:
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell (Gehenna-SGD): yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here Jesus taught the same thing John taught in Mt. 3.10-12, that only a divine being has the power to cast someone into unquenchable fire. A human can kill you. A divine being can imminently bring an unstoppable national judgment in which a divinely ordained religion would be brought to an end. Notice also that Jesus said that one would be cast into Gehenna after he has been killed (Lk. 12.4-5) and that God can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna.
Notice also in verse 49 that Jesus said:
I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
The fiery judgment of which Jesus spoke was not far off in time and place, but imminent and earthly. In verse 56, Jesus noted that the judgment of which he spoke was imminent, for he said:
Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time?
The word for earth in both these verses is gen, the standard word for land or ground, not necessarily the planet, which we might think. Thayer defined the word as:
1. arable land, 2. the ground, the earth as a standing place, 3. land, as opposed to sea or water, 4. the earth as a whole, the world. (p. 114)
This is the word used in Mt. 2.6 (the land of Judea), Mt. 2.20 (the land of Israel), Mt. 10.15 (the land of Sodom and Gomorrah), Mt. 11.24 (the land of Sodom), Mt. 14.34 (the land of Gennesaret), Jn. 3.22 (the land of Judea), Ac. 7.3 (into the land which I shall show thee), Ac. 7.6 (seed should sojourn in a strange land), Ac. 7.11 (a dearth over all the land of Egypt), etc. Thus, Jesus again spoke of imminent fiery destruction on the land of Israel, just as Malachi and John the Baptist said he would announce.
Mt. 18.9, Mk. 9.43-45
These verses contain the sixth, seventh, eight, and ninth times Jesus used the word Gehenna. These are verses like Mt. 5.29-30, which speak of it being better to enter life or the kingdom without some members of one's body rather than going into Gehenna with a whole body. However, we want to pay special attention to Mark's account, because in it, Jesus further described Gehenna:
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire [emphasis mine-SGD].
Notice that Jesus specifically said what's coming in Gehenna-unquenchable fire. John the Baptist said he would baptize with unquenchable fire, not necessarily fire that would burn unendingly, but which would not be quenched. Unquenchable fire is unstoppable! It's fiery destruction brought about by a divine being. In Ezk. 20.47-48, God promised such a national judgment on Judah:
Hear the word of the Lord: Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it shall consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched, and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. And all flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.
Of course, Babylon fulfilled these words in the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. when the Jews were carried off into captivity. The fire was not quenched, but Jerusalem didn't burn unendingly from 586 B.C. on.
Likewise, in Amos 5.6, God had promised a similar judgment on the northern kingdom at the hands of the Assyrians, fulfilled in 722 B.C. when they were carried into captivity:
Seek the Lord that you may live, lest He break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it consume with none to quench it for Bethel.
The unquenchable fire which consumed Israel was unstoppable, but no one believes it's still burning unendingly. Thus, when Jesus spoke of unquenchable fire in Mk. 9.43, he used language that his Jewish listeners would associate with the national judgments God had brought on nations in the Old Testament. In fact, they had never heard such language used any other way! Of course, we have, but not from the teaching of the Bible. “
Grace, Bubba
Re: A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS
Piadion and Homer,
Thanks for the welcome, this forum, from what I have read so far, appears to have individuals that respond in decent God pleasing ways.
Looking forward,
Bubba
Thanks for the welcome, this forum, from what I have read so far, appears to have individuals that respond in decent God pleasing ways.
Looking forward,
Bubba