Is There Harm in teaching Universalism?

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_TK
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Post by _TK » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:51 pm

Dave wrote:
I think that the following two assumptions are often the colored glasses through which many who are opposed to CU read the scripture:

1) Physical death eternally cements one's rejection of Christ.
2) Being "saved" is primarily about avoiding Hell.
i disagree with number 2 (even though i think I am opposed to CU) although avoiding hell is a fringe benefit; #1 is more problematic. I still dont believe CUs here have disproved #1. maybe it is not their burden of proof. But i think if a person gave a fair reading of all of scripture, w/o pre-conceived notions, they would come away with the idea that a decision for Christ has to be made while they are physically alive. there are so many various warnings that can only be read to mean that a person has to make a decision while yet alive.

I realize that this has all probably been hashed out many times elsewhere, and Rick C did a much better job than I could do countering CU. i am not even sure that i WANT to counter it! It's a moot point for Christians, and CUs have made the case that it is a moot point in the way we witness, so I am not exactly sure what the big deal is.

However, for some reason i get a little queasy with the idea that CU could be the correct view. Why is that?

TK
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:47 pm

However, for some reason i get a little queasy with the idea that CU could be the correct view. Why is that?




I'm not thrilled at the prospect of meeting Hitler in heaven so my position is that salvation is possible after death through the LOF but it is not necessarily inevitable that every last person will be saved. The word "all" could be hyperbole for large majority or something like that.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:18 pm

A question for CU's:

if a person was to ask: "Don't many paths lead to God?"

How would you respond?

I am asking this because i was thinking about ramifications if CU is true. Hindus, buddhists, satanists, for that matter, will all ultimately be with Jesus. presumably a hindu who hasnt heard anything about jesus would need to spend very little time being "corrected" before they see the light that they had never been properly presented with.
I think each individual has their own path that leads to God. Each one of us on this forum came to Christ by a different path. But that path ultimately does lead to Jesus. There is a narrow path and a wide path, which is sort of like, "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later." The wide path leads to destruction, yet, I believe, through that destruction one is restored to Christ.

On the point of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc., I believe that many (perhaps most) will, after they die, stand before Jesus and exclaim, "Ah it was you all along!"

I don't base my theology upon children's books, but your question reminded me of a scene that takes place in the book The Last Battle (from The Chronicles of Narnia) by C.S. Lewis. Emeth, a Calormene soldier, speaks of his encounter with Aslan. The Calormenes worship the god Tash:
So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable trees till lo! in a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like the ostrich, and his size as an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold and the brightness of his eyes like gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Lagour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert. Then I fell at his feet and thought, "Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him." But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, thou art welcome." But I said, "Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me." Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" I said, "Lord, thou knowest how much I understand." But I said also (for the truth constrained me), "Yet, I have been seeking Tash all my days." "Beloved," said the Glorious One, "unless the desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."
The old saying is that "all truth is God's truth". I believe that there is much truth in other religions, but their pictures are incomplete and distorted because they are missing the essential component: Christ. Rather than contest with an adherent to another religion about which one is right and which one is wrong, I'd rather just talk to them about Jesus.
And regarding Acts 4:12-- Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.--- does a CU simply add an implicit "during this life" to the end of this verse? You might say that Jesus is in fact the only name that will bring reconciliation, but Peter seemed to be preaching rather urgently that they had to accept Christ NOW. i am not a greek expert. but the english wording of the sentence, particularly the part i underlined, seems to put some requirement on people in this life-- i.e we MUST be saved by calling on Jesus. If CU is true, this is not a true statement, unless you push the acceptance of Christ past the point of physical death. I realize that you believe that this is indeed possible, but gee whiz, the verse doesnt say anything about that.


I think with Acts 4:12 we need to begin by looking at the immediate historical context. Peter is speaking to the Jewish Sanhedrin, the very same body that had Jesus killed. They knew Jesus. They had seen Him face-to-face and had spoken with Him and had witnessed His miracles. Jesus was, to them, a very real person.

I don't know if Peter and John realized it, but within a few decades the temple in which they were standing would be destroyed by Roman armies. The entire temple system would cease to exist, as would the Sadducee party and priestly function. These were the people to whom Peter and John were directly speaking. Their entire power base was about to collapse.

We know from history that it was the Christians who understood the "sign of the times" and fled Jerusalem before the Roman armies laid siege. The followers of Jesus were saved from that calamity.

Does that mean Peter's words were only for the original hearers? No, we can move outward from the original historical context of Acts 4:12 and the words still apply, but I believe there was a definite temporal immediacy about what Peter said and who he said it to.

I do believe that there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. However, I believe that ultimately that salvation is an accomplished fact. The variable is how long and hard a road one takes to get there.
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Post by _Homer » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:30 pm

Steve7150,

You are not actually a universalist! You differ only in where the line is drawn! But if the person who breaks the law in one point is guilty of all:

James 2:10 (New King James Version)

10. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


So all are guilty and need forgiveness in Christ. Who are we to say that the good atheist will be on "one side of the line" and Hitler on the other? How do we know how seriously God regards what we consider to be
trivial? This discussion has been permeated throughout with our "feelings" of what God must do and what He must be like - that is, He must conform to our image.

He has left us a record of facts regarding how He deals with sin. Can you think of any facts that support the universalist view? Anyone?
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:54 pm

He has left us a record of facts regarding how He deals with sin.
No, He has left us a collection of inspired documents written primarily in the Hebrew and Greek languages. He has also given us creation, which speaks of His existence and majesty. He has also placed eternity in our hearts. And He has given us the Holy Spirit to be our teacher, guide and comforter.

The Bible is not a "fact book". It is a revelation of a person.
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Post by _Homer » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:25 pm

Danny,
The Bible is not a "fact book". It is a revelation of a person.
Wow, wow, and double-wow! :shock: I'm beginning to understand more and more what we are dealing with here. You have indicated that the stories of Adam and Noah are "epic myths", if I'm not mistaken. And I regard the Bible as containing an historical account of actual things that have happened in space and time. Facts.

Cuts way down on the common ground we might have as a basis for discussion.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:39 pm

You mean brothers in Christ isn't enough?
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Post by _Homer » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:40 am

Danny,
You mean brothers in Christ isn't enough?
:)

Nope. I mean, for example, how would we discuss Jesus being the "second Adam" if the first was "an epic myth". And if Adam was a myth, how about Jesus reference to Abel:


Matthew 23:34-35 (New King James Version)


34. Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35. that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.


If Abel is a myth, did Jesus mention a mythical person and a real one or are both myths? And if Jesus believed mythical persons were historical, what does that tell us about Him?

And I'm supposing (correct me if I'm wrong) you think the book of Job was a fictional story.

I could go on, but I think you can see that we share some common ground and otherwise may be on different planets, so to speak. This is what I mean about facts.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:58 am

I think those would all be great topics for discussion. I would love to try to show you that how I view the Bible is a bit more nuanced than you think.

So, when you referred to "the facts" of the Bible in relation to Christian Universalism, were you referring just to the portions that contain historical narrative?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:08 am

So all are guilty and need forgiveness in Christ. Who are we to say that the good atheist will be on "one side of the line" and Hitler on the other? How do we know how seriously God regards what we consider to be
trivial? This discussion has been permeated throughout with our "feelings" of what God must do and what He must be like - that is, He must conform to our image.



Homer, I think the bible implies different degrees of sin. Rahab,Abraham,Moses,David sinned plenty but they are in heaven. I'm not suggesting that there is a single person not guilty of sin but the bible says God desires that no one perish and there are other verses that say God's will is going to be done.
We have repeated these verses many times but you apparently believe man's free will in the life alone overides God's will.
As if man's will has some lofty power over God's will and then once a sinner is in hell and he changes his free will when he has more revelation, well that's just to bad because it's to late.
It's not that God must do anything, it's that God told us what HE DESIRES TO DO.
Homer, do you think God was joking around , just pulling our leg when he tells us He wants no one to perish? Do you think it's just wishful thinking on God's part?
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