The Second Death

[Guest]

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

According to Universalism, and Eternal Torment, what is the second death?


I think that there are 2 resurrections. Spiritual (Jn. 5:24; Eph 2:5-6; Col 2:13 1 Jn 3:14) which takes place when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, through coming to faith in Christ.

Physical: (Jn 5:28-29; Acts 24:14-15) This will happen on the "last day"; (Jn. 6: 40, 44, 54; 12:48).

I think that there are 2 deaths. Spiritual (this is the state that we are in prior to coming to Christ); (Eph 2:1,5; 5:14; 1Jn 3:14)

That the second death is a physical destruction of both body and soul, is admittingly, a lillte harder to prove, due to the "Greek word x could mean a instead of b, so no matter what all of the translations say, you can't be right" methodology. But I think there is some scriptural support for this as well.

Jesus puts this forth as at least a possibility:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In 28a, Jesus speaks of two types of killing. That which affects the body, and that which affects the soul. Man is only capable of destroying one of these; The body. But God can destroy both body and soul, which Jesus points out in 28b. He says this takes place in Gehenna.

Does everyone (both ET and CU) agree that this is at least a hypothetical possibility?

Gehenna, according to Thayer, "was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction."

Whatever you think of Thayers last sentence, I think that Jesus' allusion to the "valley of Hinnom" at least illustrates that Jesus meant actually destroy both body and soul (for destruction is what happened to those things which were cast into the fire at gehenna).


This verse, coupled with all of the verses which speak of the end of the wicked as "death" (Gen 2:17; Eze 18:20; Rom 6:23); "perish" (Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3; Jn 10:28; 2 Pet. 3:9) "destruction" (1 Thes. 5:3; 2 Thes. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:12;) and "consumed" (Heb. 10:27), leads me to believe that the second death, which happens within the "lake of fire", is the complete destruction of both the body and soul of those that are placed there.

Either way, the "second death" has to mean something. And since the first and second resurections are two different events, I would think that the first and second deaths are different as well.

We also know that it takes place in the lake of fire, and is after the physical resurection. I think we (aside from maybe Todd) can agree on that much.


So what does it mean?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

God bless!

[Guest]

shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death


It sounds like the lake of fire itself could be the second death. Fire can either purify or destroy and IMHO some may end up being purified and others may end up being destroyed from the LOF.

[Guest]

I think we (aside from maybe Todd) can agree on that much.

Hi Derek,

I like the question you asked in this thread, and I also like the way you asked it. But from the comment you made here it seems you may not be interested in my thoughts on this. So I guess I'll just read along and see what others have to say.

God Bless you,

Todd

[Guest]

shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death


It sounds like the lake of fire itself could be the second death. Fire can either purify or destroy and IMHO some may end up being purified and others may end up being destroyed from the LOF.

How to you get "purify" from "death"? What is it about the word "death" that would make you think "purify"? (much less destroy, consume, perish, etc.)? It sounds like "death", not "purification" takes place in the lake of fire to me.

[Guest]

Derek,

Some thoughts.

First, I often hear Mt 10:28 quoted as proof that God (can or will) destroy the soul in gehenna. But the verse actually doesn't mention God as the one to fear. It seems that everyone quotes it as if it says that. But it just says fear "him" without specifying who he is.

Now, I agree that it may very well mean God, but do we have to assume that is who Jesus is referring to? After all, continuing on in the passage (both here and in the parallel in Luke) Jesus tells his disciples NOT to fear, because they are more valuable to the Father than many sparrows.

Also, in Hebrews (2:14) the devil is identified as the one who has (had!) the power over death (and over whom Christ came to defeat!)

I will repeat, I believe your interpretation of this verse is probably the most likely (never having heard anyone interpret it differently). Just wanted to offer another slant.

Regarding the "second death". I find it interesting some of the other information we have on it.

In Rev. 2 we are told that those who are faithful unto death, who overcome, will not be "hurt" of the second death.

In Rev. 20, prior to the passage you site, we are told that those who have been martyred for their faith, and refused to worship the beast, the second death has no power (or authority) over them.

It doesn't say they will not experience the second death. (Maybe they do, maybe they don't). But if the second death is what prepares one for being in the presence of God (as perhaps the images of fire and sulfur suggest), then having already been purified (by considering themselves dead to sin, alive to God, by refusing to worship the beast, by taking up their cross and following Jesus - ie: by being a disciple!) perhaps means that the purification work has already been accomplished in them so it does not hurt them.

As you can see, I am just speculating. I personally believe we will all probably be somewhat surprised on that day. We are given many pieces of information about what happens at the judgment, but nowhere a complete unambiguous picture. Hence the wonderful discussions that we have seen recently in these ET vs. CI vs. CU threads. I enjoy them, but try not to get too dogmatic myself.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

I think we (aside from maybe Todd) can agree on that much.

Hi Derek,

I like the question you asked in this thread, and I also like the way you asked it. But from the comment you made here it seems you may not be interested in my thoughts on this. So I guess I'll just read along and see what others have to say.

God Bless you,

Todd

Hi Todd,

No, I just said that you wouldn't agree that Rev. 20 is speaking of the physical resurection. If that's not your position, forgive me.

You also, if memory serves, think that the lake of fire is also something that takes place before the resurection, contrary, in my opinion, to the rather plain passage before us.

I'm commenting from memory our discussions from a while back. Perhaps my memory is a bit shady. Feel free to clarify.

God bless!

[Guest]

shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death


It sounds like the lake of fire itself could be the second death. Fire can either purify or destroy and IMHO some may end up being purified and others may end up being destroyed from the LOF.

How to you get "purify" from "death"? What is it about the word "death" that would make you think "purify"? (much less destroy, consume, perish, etc.)? It sounds like "death", not "purification" takes place in the lake of fire to me.

I can answer for myself, even though you did not ask me.

The second death is said to be in the lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur). Fire is said to be both a refining as well as a consuming agent. Sulfur was used as an agent for purification before something was considered suitable for use in worship. (It was also used by God in his judgment on Sodom - but I am not sure if that supports or hurts my argument )

I know you use e-sword - look what at Thayer has to say about the word Theion (Strongs 2303).

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Hey brother Mike,

First, I often hear Mt 10:28 quoted as proof that God (can or will) destroy the soul in gehenna. But the verse actually doesn't mention God as the one to fear. It seems that everyone quotes it as if it says that. But it just says fear "him" without specifying who he is.

Now, I agree that it may very well mean God, but do we have to assume that is who Jesus is referring to? After all, continuing on in the passage (both here and in the parallel in Luke) Jesus tells his disciples NOT to fear, because they are more valuable to the Father than many sparrows.

I think that in light of the countless times we are told to "fear God" in the bible, and the fact that it really could ultimatly only be God who has such power, that it's safe to assume that God is in view there.

Also, when Jesus tells them to "not fear" he is still speaking of those that "are able to kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul", as opposed to God. He is telling them not to fear these men, because God is in control, since not even a bird falls to the ground without His knowledge.

It doesn't say they will not experience the second death. (Maybe they do, maybe they don't).

It is those whos names are not written in the "book of life" that will go to the second death (in the lake of fire - 20:15).

I would say that those who are "faithful unto death" and who have been "martyred for the faith" are in the book of life.

Paul's "fellow workers" are in it:

Php 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Those that "overcome" are in it:

Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

So we actually do know that some will not experience the "second death", since the second death is in the lake of fire, and only those who's names are not written in the book of life go there.

Whereas the "cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars" (Rev. 21:8) do go on to the second death.

It doesn't say they will not experience the second death. (Maybe they do, maybe they don't). But if the second death is what prepares one for being in the presence of God (as perhaps the images of fire and sulfur suggest), then having already been purified (by considering themselves dead to sin, alive to God, by refusing to worship the beast, by taking up their cross and following Jesus - ie: by being a disciple!) perhaps means that the purification work has already been accomplished in them so it does not hurt them.

First of all, I don't agree that "images of fire and sulfer" suggest "preparing one to be in the presense of God" (maybe you could point me to some scriptures that suggest that). But rather, the judgement of God.

I don't think that the "first death" which isn't explicitly mentioned, but rather implied, could be thought of as our "death to self, taking up our cross etc", but is rather the result of our being sinners, as the scipture refrences I gave suggest. I think that being a disciple would more closely align with the "first ressurection".

I personally believe we will all probably be somewhat surprised on that day.

Agreed! And hopefully you Universalists are right, though I fear you are not.

God bless!

[Guest]

The second death is said to be in the lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur). Fire is said to be both a refining as well as a consuming agent. Sulfur was used as an agent for purification before something was considered suitable for use in worship. (It was also used by God in his judgment on Sodom - but I am not sure if that supports or hurts my argument )

I believe that images of fire and brimstone, as well as what "gehenna" surely meant in the ears of Jesus' audience, suggest destruction, consumation and judgement more than anything else. Throughout scripture this appears to be the case (I'll provide some scriptures in my next post for why I believe this to be the case).

Gehenna in particular, if memory serves, was also a place where they sometimes took criminal's bodies as well, as opposed to something that needed to be "purified".

I know you use e-sword - look what at Thayer has to say about the word Theion (Strongs 2303).

Will do.

[Guest]

Brimstone:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Deu 29:22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
Isa 30:32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.
Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This word overwhelmingly speaks of wrath and judgement. Though it was used for purification, it would seem that by looking at it's use in apocalyptic passages of scipture that it is always a symbol of wrath, anger, judgement, torment etc. I am sure that a search of the word "fire" would yeild similar results (when looked at in it apocalyptic uses).