Three Views Sermon

[SteveF]

I thought some might find this encouraging. A couple of weeks ago a pastor here in the Toronto area, Bruxy Cavey, did a sermon in which he introduced the three views of hell to the congregation. Rather than insist on one particular view he encouraged the home churches (they have more than 100 of them) to wrestle through the topic together. He doesn’t go in depth but he does present the strongest case for Conditional Immortality (since that’s where he’s leaning at the moment). He is not against the Christian Universalism view; he actually sees strong arguments for it. As a matter of fact, I had an opportunity to have a lengthy discussion with him a few months ago on a variety of subjects and HE was the one that brought up CU. Much like this forum they are open to discussing the merits of different positions. Actually, they’re not just open to it, they encourage it.

Here’s the video link to the sermon…..it will likely take 20min+ to download since it’s a podcast.

http://media.themeetinghouse.tv/vpodcas ... 3_2008.m4v

Here’s the audio link as well

http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3 ... sermon.mp3

Here’s the sermon notes

http://media.themeetinghouse.ca/podcast ... -notes.pdf

For those who listen on audio I’ll also provide the quotes that were put on the screen before the message. They have a tradition of showing quotes on a screen from a number of individuals before a message if given. They’re usually from a variety of perspectives and thus provoke thought.

http://media.themeetinghouse.ca/podcast ... quotes.pdf

This pastor is very influential in our province. They have a number of congregations in several cities who watch live via satellite in movie theatres. I find it encouraging that this topic and others are given an avenue for free and open discussion in such a large venue.

When Steve finishes his book, I'm definitely going to recommend they have it available in their bookstore.

[Michelle]

Thanks for posting this link, Steve. I watched it this evening and thought it was very good.

[SteveF]

Thanks Michelle. I thought the best part when he said something like "Regardless of which position you hold the most important thing to realize is there are consequences to face"

[Michelle]

Thanks Michelle. I thought the best part when he said something like "Regardless of which position you hold the most important thing to realize is there are consequences to face"

Yep, and I think he nailed it. My curiosity was piqued when he said that during the middle ages the threat of eternal torment worked to drive people to Christ, but that now it seems to do the opposite. I've been thinking about the reasons why this might be...

[darinhouston]

Thanks -- I thoroughly enjoyed it and have gone back and listened in reverse order each of the earlier ones in the series. I really like this guy, and the church sounds like a really good format with doctrines and a format that meet me where I'm at. I especially like the "creed" document (for lack of a better word) posted on their website. They go out of their way not to confess more than their certainty provides while maintaining the central and necessary beliefs. They're a part of a denomination called Brethren in Christ (BIC), formed from an old N.A. Menonnite group. I like it -- I wish there was one around Houston.

[darinhouston]

Oh, yeah -- I really enjoyed when he said that the loss of the medieval tool of hell-threat in evangelism may be inconvenient, except that you have to resort to leading your evangelizing with Christ of all things (or something like that) !

[RickC]

Thanks for the audio link, Steve.
I found the rest of this sermon series @ The Meeting House.
(I haven't heard the other three in the series yet).

Bruxy Cavey: Sermon #3 "Hell"
(Posting from my "First Time Listen" Notes with Brief Commentary)

"Schools of thought, or interpretations, or theories."
1. Eternal (Conscious) Torment
2. Soul-Death
3. Punishment and Purification

Comment.
a. Bruxy cites the ET view as beginning in the 2nd century (to which I can't disagree in terms of post-apostolic thinkers. If the view was held by the Apostles is another issue).
b. "Soul-Death" is a good way of saying 'conditional immortality' (or 'annihilationism'), imo. Explains the view with biblical terminology (biblical view of death, "ceasing to be" (body and soul) in the entirety of one's person).
c. It could be argued, as Bruxy did to some degree (whether intentionally or not), that Soul-Death is the oldest of these three views: The OT view of death is (simply) death, etc.

At 26:51 Bruxy said (and I quote):

Let's not say more than what is written. Let's stay biblical by saying as much, and as little, as the Bible says.

Comment.
I can't agree more!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Devil introduces 'inherent immortality of the soul' (to Eve).

Comment.
While the devil did say "You shall not surely die"; he seems to have been speaking only to the immediate situation. It could be argued that he was actually teaching the soul is immortal; even that this belief has satanic origins. But I don't think Bruxy was trying to say that (it didn't seem). Yet this concept is interesting: I'll keep it open for further investigation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bruxy asked if the Bible says:
"The wages of sin is eternal conscious torment"? (and, no, it says the wages of sin is death).
Taking this a step further; I would ask if the Bible says:
"The wages of sin is punishment and purification"? (no, it says the wages of sin is death).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last Comment.
I liked Bruxy's honesty and openess; that he made a level of commitment to his current view (though we don't know if he would have done this if not asked. Either way, I admire him for taking a stance). I, too, believe the Bible teaches "Soul-Death"...and, like Bruxy, am aware of problem-passages...and that "the Bible says only so much, and no more."

Thanks for reading,

[RND]

a. Bruxy cites the ET view as beginning in the 2nd century (to which I can't disagree in terms of post-apostolic thinkers. If the view was held by the Apostles is another issue).

I think the history of ET starts at Babylon and has grown from there.

[Suzana]

My curiosity was piqued when he said that during the middle ages the threat of eternal torment worked to drive people to Christ, but that now it seems to do the opposite. I've been thinking about the reasons why this might be...

I wonder if one of the reasons might be that in the Middle Ages people were largely illiterate (biblically and otherwise), and relied heavily on whatever they were told by their priests/ministers. Coupled with the fact that there was a more universal acceptance (in the western world) of God’s existence, I can understand the effect of the fear of hell being to induce people towards Christianity.

[Michelle]

My curiosity was piqued when he said that during the middle ages the threat of eternal torment worked to drive people to Christ, but that now it seems to do the opposite. I've been thinking about the reasons why this might be...

I wonder if one of the reasons might be that in the Middle Ages people were largely illiterate (biblically and otherwise), and relied heavily on whatever they were told by their priests/ministers. Coupled with the fact that there was a more universal acceptance (in the western world) of God’s existence, I can understand the effect of the fear of hell being to induce people towards Christianity.

Suzana, yes, I was thinking along those lines as well. I also thought that since the Catholic Church was such a huge presensce, at least in Europe, there was no where else to turn to hear of any other view of the afterlife. So being the only game in town for a mostly illiterate population, the threat of eternal torment was probably an effective tool for keeping folks in line.