Universalism & Eph 1:9-11

[Todd]

Eph 1:9-11
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

This is a powerful passage. First, we learn from Paul that it is God's will that the ultimate fate of all [created] things is to be gathered together in Christ. Second, we learn that God works out all things that He wills. I find these verses perhaps the strongest support for Universalism.

Also, Paul indicates that "we" (believers?) have obtained an inheritance in Him. One might assume perhaps that this same inheritance is not available for unbelievers even though their ultimate destiny is to be gathered together with the believers in Chirst. This may further explain the following verse...

1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Here we see that Christ is the Savior of all men, but in a special way for those who believe. Perhaps it is the inheritance spoken about in Eph 1:11 is what makes the salvation of believers special.

I think Paul's statement that in "the end," after the resurrection (death destroyed), that God will be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28) is further confirmation that God's will as stated in Eph 1:10 will find its fulfillment.

Another confirmation of this in Paul's writings is found in Rom 8:18-23.

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Here we learn that the Children of God (believers) will be revealed (resurrected) into a glorious liberty. After this, the rest of creation (mankind) will also be delivered from death and corruption into the same glorious liberty. I think it is interesting to note that Paul says that the creation was unwillingly subjected to futility. Perhaps that is what Paul was referring to when he wrote...

Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now I will admit that the details of how God works all this out is a mystery, but it seems apparent to me that He does. Praise be to God.

1 Cor 15:22-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

2 Cor 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Todd

[Douglas]

Todd,

Thanks for posting this and other related posts regarding this issue. As it makes me think and study hard about this topic. I appreciate the way you present a particular viewpoint. It doesn't seem to me that you are trying to force anyone believe the way you do, but to present an alternative, possibly more correct understanding to something that is definitely controversial. We are all looking for truth, and I do appreciate your input into this topic. Thanks Todd.

Doug

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You wrote the following regarding Ephesians 1:9-11:

Eph 1:9-11
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

This is a powerful passage. First, we learn from Paul that it is God's will that the ultimate fate of all [created] things is to be gathered together in Christ. Second, we learn that God works out all things that He wills. I find these verses perhaps the strongest support for Universalism.

If these verses are strong support for Universalism, the idea does not appear to have much going for it. First of all, the word "things" (underlined above) is not actually in the Greek. The word translated "all" is the Greek word pas which can not be limited to only persons. Taken literally, this would mean all animate and inanimate things that have existed, which would involve an apparent absurdity. And where the English has "gather together", the Greek has a compound word:

Strong's Number: 346 a)nakefalaio/w
Original Word Word Origin
a)nakefalaio/w from (303) and (2775) (in its original sense)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Anakephalaiomai an-ak-ef-al-ah'-ee-om-ahee
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 3:681,429
Definition
to sum up (again), to repeat summarily, to condense into a summary


The preposition ana can signify "again". As Vincent comments in his Greek word study : "God contemplates a regathering, a restoration to that former condition when all things were in perfect unity, and normally combined to serve God's ends. This unity was broken by the introduction of sin. Man's fall involved the unintelligent creation."

IMO the "mystery" Paul speaks of is that which he also spoke of in Romans 8:17-22:


Romans 8:17-22 (New King James Version)
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

God bless, Homer

[Todd]

Hi Homer,

I don't see your post as diminishing my argument at all. We even quote the same verses (Rom 8:17-23) to back up our assertions. I agree that it would be an absurdity to think that the word "all" would include rocks, trees and fish; I believe it refers to "all people."

I think it is interesting to note that the word "creation," which is used 4 times in Rom 8:17-22 is translated from the Greek word ktisis, is the same word that is translated "creature" in the following verse.

Col 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

It is apparent (to me, anyway) that the gospel was not being preached to rocks, trees or animals, but only to people. So when Paul says, "the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God," he is also talking about people (not rocks).

Here's a couple of other verses which use the same Greek word ktisis.

Heb 4:13
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

This is part of your assertion from your initial post:

This is a powerful passage. First, we learn from Paul that it is God's will that the ultimate fate of all [created] things is to be gathered together in Christ.

To which I replied:

The word translated "all" is the Greek word pas which can not be limited to only persons. Taken literally, this would mean all animate and inanimate things that have existed, which would involve an apparent absurdity.

You understand pas as referring to all people who ever lived, but the word in its literal sense can not mean just people: it means everything. We both agree that it does not mean all things that ever existed. If it did, that would include all rocks, insects, fish, fowl, people, and the trees I am burning in my woodsove for heat at this moment. This literal sense would be the absurdity. We both understand it to mean a subset of something.

We can also clearly see from scripture that "all" (pas) can refer to a subset of people. Here is an example from Mark 1:5 where it is used twice for a part of Judea and Jerusalem:

5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

We know "all" Judea and Jerusalem did not go out to be baptized by John; we are told elsewhere that the Pharisees refused John's baptism.

And you wrote:

I think it is interesting to note that the word "creation," which is used 4 times in Rom 8:17-22 is translated from the Greek word ktisis, is the same word that is translated "creature" in the following verse.

And elsewhere in Romans Paul used ktisis to refer to the creation, as he did a few verses later in 8:29.

I believe the Universalist's understanding of this whole matter of reconciliation, or gathering together, is flawed. We see in Genesis that the fall of man resulted in God cursing the earth. It is not as it was in the original creation. I believe Paul, in Ephesians and Romans, is referring to the restoring again of His creation to what it was before the fall. Whether this includes every person who ever existed, the scriptures do not inform us.

The problem for universalism is that the passage you cite as your strongest, as all other passages I have seen used by universalists, can be understood in other ways. Indeed, there is not one passage in all of scripture that clearly supports universalism when closely examined.

God bless and have a blessed Thanksgiving!, Homer

[Todd]

The problem for universalism is that the passage you cite as your strongest, as all other passages I have seen used by universalists, can be understood in other ways. Indeed, there is not one passage in all of scripture that clearly supports universalism when closely examined.

God bless and have a blessed Thanksgiving!, Homer

Homer,

As usual, you are excellent at presenting your position. I cannot argue with your point that all of these scriptures can be understood in different ways. The same can be said for the verses which seem to support eternal torment, as well as those that seem to support conditional immortality. To me, it all comes down to the philosophical arguments, as well as how one views the character of God. These things have driven me to search for alternative ways to view these passages.

I also wish you the very best Thanksgiving.

Todd

[Ian]

I can`t help but be impressed by the tone of your posts, Todd. I don`t think one need be soft on sin to want some kind of Apokatastis to be true.
Deep down inside, some Christians look forward to Judgement Day when God will deal with not just His enemies but theirs. I know that because I`ve flirted with that feeling myself in early Christian days. It seems to me that this is the antithesis of Jonah`s heart for the people in Nineveh.
I`m glad I`ve heard Steve say, "God will find any way He can to forgive". Otherwise I would have departed this site very quickly.

[steve7150]

You understand pas as referring to all people who ever lived, but the word in its literal sense can not mean just people: it means everything. We both agree that it does not mean all things that ever existed. If it did, that would include all rocks, insects, fish, fowl, people, and the trees I am burning in my woodsove for heat at this moment. This literal sense would be the absurdity. We both understand it to mean a subset of something.

We can also clearly see from scripture that "all" (pas) can refer to a subset of people. Here is an example from Mark 1:5 where it is used twice for a part of Judea and Jerusalem:





Even if it means "everything" that would'nt exclude people since people are created things and there is going to be a new heavens and earth. In the context of Eph 1 it does'nt seem to leave any room to interpret "everything" as a subset of anything.

[smcllr3]

If the passage can read either way then wouldn't you lean on stronger scriptures than these?

And here is a question I haven't seen anyone ask yet; when Jesus sits on the throne in Matthew 25 to deal out rewards and punishment, along with little simple statements like the one found in 1 Peter 1:17, Rom 2:6, etc, it seems that the opportunity to gain immortality is strictly limited to this mortal life.

And likewise, what is the use of the statement of "be faithful until death" if death is not the cutoff. I don't understand why two seconds after death one can't repent when four seconds prior was okay. But I also think that a lot of the statements about the deeds done in the flesh are now ambiguous if death is not the cutoff. Of all the explanations I haven't heard any good ones for those and similar verses.

Although I believe the Father is looking for any reason to save someone, so the doctrine is attractive. I just can't make the leap. I've read them in Greek and in English and I just don't see it without doing damage to the text.

[steve7150]

And likewise, what is the use of the statement of "be faithful until death" if death is not the cutoff. I don't understand why two seconds after death one can't repent when four seconds prior was okay. But I also think that a lot of the statements about the deeds done in the flesh are now ambiguous if death is not the cutoff. Of all the explanations I haven't heard any good ones for those and similar verses.






This is a very good verse against universalism as is the reference that few make it through the narrow gate but most Christian universalists see the lake of fire as something more then vengence or punishment.
I could ask the question if death is the final cut-off then why does'nt scripture explicitly state this? It says we all will be judged but the greek word leaves open the possibility of rehabilitation. If it did'nt there would be no viewpoint called Christian Universalism.
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