Hell - Justice vs Persuasion

[Homer]

Hi steve7150,

I did not want to veer too far off the topic on the thread re McLaren so I started a new thread.

You wrote:

I believe this is Paidion's view yet at least IMO we don't know what happens in the lake of fire or what the duration is. My own view is that it is for the sake of justice not persuasion and it is likely different lengths of time depending on the depths of ones transgressions, as in few stripes verses many stripes.steve7150

In your view, if hell is strictly for punishment, how would the universalist see the people there being converted? I know it is just speculation, but do you see the gospel as somehow being preached to them? I'm not trying to get a big discussion started on this, just curious how they are to be persuaded with punishment playing no role, and thus force being involved.

God bless, Homer

[steve7150]

In your view, if hell is strictly for punishment, how would the universalist see the people there being converted? I know it is just speculation, but do you see the gospel as somehow being preached to them? I'm not trying to get a big discussion started on this, just curious how they are to be persuaded with punishment playing no role, and thus force being involved



Thank you for asking Homer,

In Rev 20.12-15 we see books opened yet we assume it is books of our works but i think it's the gospel,
"And i saw the dead, small and great stand before God, and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I think sinners are for the first time hearing the gospel without their minds being blinded by the devil and i think Isaiah 29 prophecies this,

First a reference is made to a book that is sealed and then this book is opened,
"In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the books , and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness."
So the question is what is, "that day"? I think it's judgment day. Isa 29.11-19

[Jepne]

Some thoughts:
I have been studying world civilization, and in these studies I have learned even more of the cruelty of man. And as I meditate on this and imagine if it were I being boiled or buried alive, what would be my last thoughts, if I could think at such a time? Would the knowledge that my tormentors would suffer the same fate help me to deal with the pain and trauma that was being dealt to me? The only thing that would make things right, that would give me total joy toward them and what they did, would be to see them worship God in the same intensity as my suffering at their hands - in proportion to the disrespect they showed Him and me in their cruelty.

I was told once that God will let a man fall into utter depravity to cure him of pride in his own goodness. Then the innocent suffer and gain an opportunity to ‘obtain a better resurrection’. Hmm.

How does the cruel warrior come to that blessed/painful place of repentance? Perhaps suffering the same fate as he assigned to me would help him to realize his fallen estate, much like Nathan caused David to see what he had done to Uzziah, to the God he so loved, or thought he loved. We read of the wrath of God, and the wrath of the Lamb, and Jesus’ wrath in the Temple – the law of sowing and reaping.

An effective program in prisons is to have victims of various crimes come to address the prisoners about the impact others’ violence has had on them. It has proven very successful in helping them to come to changing their minds about their crimes - repentance.

Jesus told us to pray for our enemies – but to pray that someone else will sin against them as greatly as they have sinned against us? And thus perpetuate the cycle of sin, pain and punishment to go on forever?

No. We are to pray for an end to the cycle, and the end will come when the eyes of the heart are enlightened and they come to repent to the One ‘against whom only they have sinned’. Talk about how long this will take is irrelevant; when repentance comes, time is irrelevant.

Vengeance and capital punishment are the way of fallen man and the Law which Jesus fulfilled, and He chose to say, “Go and sin no more,” rather than mete out punishment, trying to shame the woman who was already ashamed, but instead, He delivered the woman from shame. Our enemies become our brothers. This makes things right.

Jesus did not cry out for vengeance on his murderers. He prayed a blessing of forgiveness [and repentance] for them.

[steve7150]

Vengeance and capital punishment are the way of fallen man and the Law which Jesus fulfilled, and He chose to say, “Go and sin no more,” rather than mete out punishment, trying to shame the woman who was already ashamed, but instead, He delivered the woman from shame. Our enemies become our brothers. This makes things right.






True but during Jesus ministry he said he did'nt come to judge, he came bringing grace and truth yet there is a future judgment day, there is judgment and there is a lake of fire.

[Danny]

Hi Homer,

I see a false dichotomy in how you've titled the thread and framed the discussion. Justice and persuasion are not mutually exclusive or at odds with one another. How about 'justice + persuasion' or 'justice via persuasion'?

What if God's view of justice isn't punitive or juridical, but is instead restorative? I believe that true justice is all about putting things right--restoring things to the way they ought to be and bringing reconciliation.

As a Universalist, I speculate that people in the afterlife will be converted by being confronted with God's Truth, God's Love and God's Holiness. There will be no hiding from the pain that one has caused to God and others and one will experience the full realization of the impact of one's sins. To be utterly exposed and come face-to-face with God as God really is will be, for some, a horrific experience. All that is in oneself--all that one became throughout one's lifetime--which is antithetical to God, will be "burned" away (after all, our God is a consuming fire). For some, after this there may not be much left.

The Eastern Orthodox church teaches that since God is omnipresent, Heaven and Hell are the same place. What will make it Heaven for one and Hell for another will be one's orientation towards God.

Yet I believe that after God's purifying fire removes all that is not of Love and Truth and Holiness, what comes next is restoration. Love is the motive behind God's judgement and Love seeks to restore. Then, when this work is finished, God will be all in all; His victory will be complete and every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

-Danny

[Jepne]

What if God's view of justice isn't punitive or juridical, but is instead restorative? I believe that true justice is all about putting things right--restoring things to the way they ought to be and bringing reconciliation.

This statement brings joy to my heart, although it irks the flesh, but, thank God, I cannot get my head around, as some have said, that the joy of heaven is seeing others being tormented unspeakably under the rule of Satan forever. Heaven must be love and rightness if God rules there. If the angels rejoice when the sinners repent, and we do too, how could heaven be such eternal grieving for us all - seeing sinners suffer with no hope? I was without hope once. It was terrible - I will never forget it.

As a Universalist, I speculate that people in the afterlife will be converted by being confronted with God's Truth, God's Love and God's Holiness. There will be no hiding from the pain that one has caused to God and others and one will experience the full realization of the impact of one's sins. To be utterly exposed and come face-to-face with God as God really is will be, for some, a horrific experience. All that is in oneself--all that one became throughout one's lifetime--which is antithetical to God, will be "burned" away (after all, our God is a consuming fire).

There is your lake of fire and the judgment of God and the wrath of the Lamb.

In the afterlife, there will be no distractions from this reality. No hockey, no telephone, things which turn to dust here on earth when we are in the midst of suffering, but which, if we are not suffering enough, can seem to be a total escape.

For some, after this there may not be much left.

Here you go: He fans to flame the smoldering wick. When we are nothing, He can be everything. Those who have been forgiven much, have the joy of loving much. The last shall be first.

Yet I believe that after God's purifying fire removes all that is not of Love and Truth and Holiness, what comes next is restoration. Love is the motive behind God's judgement and Love seeks to restore. Then, when this work is finished, God will be all in all; His victory will be complete and every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Excellent.

[steve7150]

This statement brings joy to my heart, although it irks the flesh, but, thank God, I cannot get my head around, as some have said, that the joy of heaven is seeing others being tormented unspeakably under the rule of Satan forever









Actually Jesus presides over the lake of fire not Satan (Rev 14) but i share the hope that justice is restorative based on the charactor of God revealed through Christ.

[Jepne]

Actually Jesus presides over the lake of fire not Satan (Rev 14) but i share the hope that justice is restorative based on the character of God revealed through Christ.

If that is true, then it is most likely that the lake of fire is restorative. After all, His whole life and purpose was to set the captive free. That bears some looking into. Good one!

[NevadaDad]

As much as I would like to believe that God's punishment is always restorative without any punitive element, I have a difficult time reconciling such a view with passages such as Luke 16:19-31 regarding the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I realize that this passage is the subject of considerable debate regarding whether it is a literal depiction of actual individuals, or is simply a parable. Actually, whether this is a parable or not is inconsequential to this particular discussion: the passage clearly conveys that the Rich Man's torment (even if just metaphorical) lasts longer than would be necessary if its only purpose were to elicit repentence. The Rich Man was well past the point of repentence...had he been able to change his station by admitting and turning from the wrongs committed during his life on earth, he gladly would have. Indeed, he seems to realize that it is futile at that point and asks merely that he receive a moment's reprieve. When that is denied, he thinks not of himself, but of loved ones still alive (v 27-28), and begs that they be warned so that they will not suffer a similar fate. He is denied that request as well.

As I said earlier, it is very difficult for me to read a passage such as this and ascribe to God only actions which are ultimately restorative in nature, as the Rich Man has clearly passed the point of congnizance of wrongdoing and willingness to repent. Indeed, he has repented, but it is now too late.

It is also difficult for me to reconcile many of the Psalms with a belief that all actions of God are ultimately restorative. Jealously and vengeance, as much as we may wish to discuss only his love and forgiveness, are also characteristics of God. See, for example, Ps 58: 10-11, Ps 59:13-15, Ps 69:22-28 (esp v 27-28), Ps 81:15, and numerous other similar passages in the Psalms that could be cited.

Please understand that I don't find personal satisfaction in "getting even" or wishing the torment of hell upon anyone. That is not the point of this post. It is merely that I have a difficult time finding biblical support for the notion that there is post-death opportunity for salvation, or that that the purpose of hell is only (or primarily) restorative. Without getting bogged down in whether Luke 16:19-31 is literal or parable, it seems to me that we must ask, "What is Jesus trying to tell us about the ramifications of choices made in this life, the inability to choose a different path in the life hereafter, and whether the fire of hell (even if only a metaphor for some other kind of extreme discomfort) lasts only long enough to bring about a change of heart?"

[steve7150]

It is also difficult for me to reconcile many of the Psalms with a belief that all actions of God are ultimately restorative. Jealously and vengeance, as much as we may wish to discuss only his love and forgiveness, are also characteristics of God. See, for example, Ps 58: 10-11, Ps 59:13-15, Ps 69:22-28 (esp v 27-28), Ps 81:15, and numerous other similar passages in the Psalms that could be cited




Hi Nevada Dad,

For myself i have no difficulty in punishment followed by a restoration process. Christ who is the exact image of God told us to forgive 70 x 7 times and forgiveness should lead to restoration and many verses in the NT speak of the restoration of "all things" to Christ followed by God being all in all. BTW the story of the Rich man is not necessarily about hell, it could be about the jewish nation rejecting Christ and looking to Father Abraham for help. Who else would look to Father Abraham? It could also be about the Pharisees as their priests wore purple and thought they were favored by God because they were rich. Lazarus could be symbolic of the gentiles and the jewish nation had the spiritual food which they refused to share. Christ could have been saying "expect to switch places with the gentiles and don't think Abraham can help you".
I don't dismiss your examples in Psalms but i don't think they are the final word on God , i think Christ is the clearest revelation of God. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."