The Day of Judgment for the Christian

[Todd]

My only point was that if Hitler received his punishment in this life, it doesn't seem like it was very "punishing" for him considering he was a dictator. Even if his soul was tormented over the evils he did, is that really God's just and holy dealing with the man?

Rich,

You bring up reasonable objections when dealing with an extreme case like Hitler. It would seem to me that Hitler was most likely a tormented soul who died an untimely death brought about as a result of his wickedness. This was God's wrath against him. But your objection is that this result (God's judgment against Hitler) is not sufficient for all the evil he did. I would agree that there is no equity here; from our viewpoint equity would only be accomplished if he suffered that same fate a million times. But I don't believe God works that way. Once a man is dead he can no longer sin or do harm to others. What good could be accomplished by further punishment? After all, if justice is about doing the right thing, what righteousness is there in additional torment when God has the power to simply raise him in a sinless state?

I agree that wickedness sends shock waves throughout society, which is why God has established the governing authorities to act as His agent to execute wrath against the evil doers. A good example of this is what happend to Sadaam Hussein and his two sons.

But some will ask, what about those who never get caught in their crimes? My only answer here is that they have to live with themselves and the torment of their own conscience along with any shame or condemnation inflicted by their associates.

The bible teaches that we reap what we sow; it is in this way that we are rewarded according to our works. Consider the Old Testament where God poured out His wrath upon the living with no mention of additional post-death punishment.

Todd

[Todd]

Also, what about the many references to the day of judgment in the Bible? If there's no judging actually happening, but everyone is now "resurrected and at peace with God" what's the point of appointing the Day of Judgment in which God will judge all men by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:31... let alone countless other passages)?

I view Judgment Day in a metaphorical sense. It's not that we literally all wait in line for our turn at Christ's judgment seat.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Christ's Holy Spirit is active and alive working the hearts of man to convict or approve of what we think and do. In this way, Judgment Day is everyday. But in another sense, Judgement Day can be the day when someone is caught in his sin such as the murderer who is sent to the gas chamber, or the adulterer who loses his family (e.g., Tiger Woods). Also, Judgment Day came against the Jewish nation in 70AD.

Todd

[RICHinCHRIST]

Ok, Todd. I understand your view a little bit better now. I wonder what the Christian Universalist position would hold on whether Christians go through any type of purging after the resurrection...

[steve7150]

Ok, Todd. I understand your view a little bit better now. I wonder what the Christian Universalist position would hold on whether Christians go through any type of purging after the resurrection...





Yes that would be the main purpose of the lake of fire which is where unbelievers reside after judgment day. "Fire" coming from the greek word "pur" which i understand to mean "purify" and in this context , a purification of sin.
Yet IMHO the sinner does'nt get off the hook , he will reap what he sowed. If Rev is sequential then Rev 22.17 summarizes God's ultimate intent.

[RICHinCHRIST]

I understand that position. But my question was whether believers are rewarded for their bad works in any way? The passage I quoted at the beginning of this thread was 2 Cor. 5:10
Three possible conclusions from this verse:

1) This is speaking exclusively of every Christian being rewarded only for his good works, as well as every unbeliever being rewarded only for his bad works.

2) This is speaking exclusively of only Christians being rewarded for both their good and bad works.

3) This is speaking exclusively of everyone (Christian or not) being rewarded for both their good and bad works.

These are the only three conclusions I can break it down to (based on earlier posts)

The problems I have with all three are this:

1) This seems to stretch the verse a little bit out of context; almost a proof-text method (although this interpretation would agree with Romans 2:6-11, in my opinion.)

2) How are Christians rewarded for their bad works other than punishment for them? Why did Christ have to die then?

3) Why would an unbeliever get a reward for doing good (does he get a pat on the back before being thrown in the lake of fire?)? Once again, what does it look like for a Christian to be rewarded for his bad works?

[Ian]

Those who know God and act righteously, have a peace which passes understanding and rest well at night free from fear, anxiety, guilt and shame. The same cannot be said for those who do wrong; they have a war within themselves and find no rest or peace, but instead are overcome in condemnation and conviction in their heart

Hi Todd

I take on board all you`re saying and like what you`re saying. I like the spirit behind it. But I don`t think it`s a catch-all position.

I try to do right by my wife and I gain some satisfaction in knowing that she is relatively happy. I believe I am diligent in other (but alas not all) areas pertaining righteousness. I have an unbelieving friend who most definitely did not do right by his wife. He prioritised his own happiness over hers. And yet overall he is happier than I am. He has frequently said to me, "this life is not a dress-rehearsal". And he appears totally convinced that he did the "right thing" by dumping her. Deep down he may fear death more than I, but he`s way bubblier and more upbeat about life than I am. Maybe it`s temperament? I have always been on the melancholic, introverted side. He has always been the sanguine extrovert. You wouldn`t catch him posting on no forum! He`s too busy being out there - being the life and soul of the party! Outwardly at least, our two lives don`t fit the categories in the quote above.

[Todd]

I have an unbelieving friend who most definitely did not do right by his wife. He prioritised his own happiness over hers. And yet overall he is happier than I am. He has frequently said to me, "this life is not a dress-rehearsal". And he appears totally convinced that he did the "right thing" by dumping her. Deep down he may fear death more than I, but he`s way bubblier and more upbeat about life than I am. Maybe it`s temperament? I have always been on the melancholic, introverted side. He has always been the sanguine extrovert. You wouldn`t catch him posting on no forum! He`s too busy being out there - being the life and soul of the party! Outwardly at least, our two lives don`t fit the categories in the quote above.

Hi Ian,

Of course I don't know the situation you describe, but it sounds like much of it is a difference in personalities. I too am more quiet and introverted, but that doesn't make me less happy than someone who is bubbly and upbeat. And if your friend did wrong by divorcing, then I feel confident he has paid (or continues to pay, or will pay) some price for it, although it might not be visible to others. I think many "extroverted upbeat" people are pretty good at hiding what is going on inside their heart.

Heb 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Even though Christ has all things in subjection, we can't necessarily see it. But we can be assured people will reap what they sow. Perhaps your friend's Judgment Day has not yet come for what he did.

Heb 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Todd

[Ian]

That was a quick reply Todd! Where do you live?

To add something else to the equation:
in 2004 I broke three bones in my neck in a motor bike accident. The breaks compressed the spinal chord so that I was temporarily a complete tetraplegic. However the spinal cord was not severed at any point so that I regained movement to my limbs after the operation. Nonetheless every square inch of my skin is numb and burns uncomfortably hot - the so-called "neuropathic pain", "one of the worst pains known to Man" . No let-up for the rest of my life. This is what I`m stuck with. I don`t wish to be a cry-baby, but my friend has some major catching-up to do on the suffering stakes. I would be surprised if he did.

[Ian]

I feel confident he has paid (or continues to pay, or will pay) some price for it

Undoubtedly some. But you seem to be saying that the punishment is meeted out proportionally in each man`s case here and now in this life. I kind of would like to believe that, but don`t feel able to.

And doesn`t a seared conscience suffer less than an intact one, here and now in this lifetime?

[steve7150]

2) How are Christians rewarded for their bad works other than punishment for them? Why did Christ have to die then?

3) Why would an unbeliever get a reward for doing good (does he get a pat on the back before being thrown in the lake of fire?)? Once again, what does it look like for a Christian to be rewarded for his bad works?




Sorry i misunderstood before. I think this ties into Rev 20 where everyone is judged by their works and for unbelievers although they are unsaved they could have led a considerably better life then many others based on responding to knowing right from wrong, which is a God given revelation.
Christ died so believers in him can have right standing with God yet despite this there are some more obedient and productive with what they are given then others as we see from the parable of the talents. We are not told how believers are rewarded for their bad works but in Rev 7 it does show the 144K as the sealed of Christ and the great multitude although dressed in white robes and at the throne yet still having to be fed and led by Christ. So it appears to me there are different levels of sanctification even in heaven.