Thoughts on Post-Mortem Purging

[RICHinCHRIST]

The following thoughts are in regards to certain passages that seem to be evidential of the possibility of post-mortem purging (purgatory). Ever since hearing the arguments for the three views of hell, I have had the different views in the back of my mind when I read the Bible. It surprises me sometimes when I consider how many early Church Fathers believed in purgatory, or even in the possibility of being in a lost condition after committing one willful sin after baptism. These men had the same Scriptures we do, and they most likely were much more godly and perhaps even had deeper revelations than many of us. These considerations have often troubled me. I know purgatory has a bad wrap since it is a Roman Catholic thing, and also that there was some weird exploitation of the teaching in order to scare people into buying indulgences and stuff. I am looking beyond those things and searching for what the early church fathers thought about these things. Perhaps it would be good to actually read what they wrote about this topic, but I think I'll start with the Scriptures themselves.

Some of the following passages, after reading them several times, seem to point me in the direction of the possibility for Christians to experience some form of correction in the next life. Perhaps these passages might even give us a glimpse of the possibility of the same conditions for those who are not saved in this life. I would be interested in other opinions on these passages, since I'm still unsure about interpreting them all.
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Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Observations:
- The individual who was forgiven but did not forgive was a "servant" of the master. The master is God. The servant must be a Christian.
- The parable begins with God wanting to "settle accounts" with all his servants. This seems to point to the final judgment, post-mortem...
- This servant was once forgiven of his sins but no longer was when he was sent to "the torturers".
- The servant was sent to the torturers in order to pay his debts. It was possible for "all" his debts to be paid. We can deduce that whatever this punishment is, there is an end to it (it is not eternal).

Questions:
- Is it possible for a Christian to be tortured (or purged) in the next life because of his lack of forgiveness in his earthly life?
- Will the Christian be restored to God after he has paid his due?
- Will God do this to His servants only if they harbor unforgiveness? Or could other sins also fit into the category for post-mortem punishment?

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1 Corinthians 3:10-17
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Observations:
- Many say this is referring to church leaders or church planters and not to all Christians. Perhaps so. Even still, Christians are the ones being described here (since church planters are Christians). It is also possible that it may refer to all Christians since everyone's "works" will be tried by fire one day, at the judgment seat of Christ.
- Verse 17 seems to indicate, by context, that the person who's work doesn't endure, the one who suffers loss but is still saved through fire, is the one who is being "destroyed" by God. If this is in reference solely to church planters, then this individual has defiled the temple of God, the Church. God will destroy him for doing so. However, being "destroyed" in this case does not mean being eternally lost. He will still be saved through fire. If this is the case, perhaps even other passages which speak of one being "destroyed" by God actually point to the reconciliation of that individual by God, not their eternal destruction.

Questions:
- How does one suffer loss after judgment day? Verse 15 seems to indicate it is a loss which is close to the loss of his own salvation... but not enough in order for him to lose it completely (he will still be saved).
- What does it mean to be saved "through fire"? Must we take this non-literally?

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Romans 2:1-16
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Questions:
- Paul is writing to Christians (Rom. 1:7). Why does he speak as though a Christian can store up wrath against himself in the day of judgment? (2:5-6)
- For God to render to "each one according to his deeds" would seem to indicate that every action will have its respective reward. Will God simply overlook Christian's sins, especially if they were after one's initial conversion? Perhaps the blood of Christ covers the eternal death penalty, but not the correction which is needed for the Christian's soul to be purged of the evil that has not been thoroughly repented of and forsaken in their earthly life.
- The Gentiles spoken of here must be Christians since they have the law "written on their hearts". If this is the case, why does verse 15 seem to indicate that their conscience can accuse them of the wrongs they've done, if in fact the blood of Christ has cleansed their consciences? Is it possible that God will purge them on that day when He will judge their secrets?

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2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

Observations:
- All people, including Christians will stand before the judgment.
- Christians will receive what is due for them according to what they have done... even the bad things they have done.
- This is a terrifying prospect. (verse 11)

Questions:
- Why must Christians be judged, if in fact God is going to not hold any of their sins against them anyway? What is the point of judging their secrets if He is simply going to dismiss all of their bad deeds anyway?
- If God is going to overlook their bad deeds because of Christ's penal substitution, why did Paul say that Christians will have to receive things even for the bad deeds they have committed?

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Mark 9:49-50
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”

Observations:
- This passage is extremely difficult to interpret.
- the previous verses to these statements are Jesus' comments about plucking out your eyes, hands, or feet so you don't end up in Gehenna. He repeats this admonition three times.

Questions:
- What does it mean that "everyone" will be seasoned with "fire"? Is this Gehenna fire? Is this post-mortem?

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Some Other Considerations

1 John 3:1-3 states that we are to purify ourselves in hope knowing that we will one day be "like" Christ. If we are to become like Christ day by day, as the Holy Spirit works in us (2 Cor. 3:18), why must we assume that the process is over once we die? When one dies and enters into the intermediate state... do they automatically become 100% pure and holy like God? Is there no progression in the afterlife before or even after the resurrection? What are the disembodied souls doing in the presence of God? Are they already completely mature and complete? Or is it possible that God is continually purging these individuals and preparing them for their future glory? The reason I ask this is because it seems bizarre that we would grow in grace in small increments in this life and then immediately be "perfect" once we die. Could it be possible that there is still more we need to learn and be corrected of in the next life before we inherit all God has for us? I don't think this is too farfetched of an idea. I could actually see a scenario where those in the intermediate state actually grow in holiness after their death.

Also, one's experience of purgatory may not necessarily be extraordinarily painful. God is a consuming fire, and His Spirit is even working to purge sin out of us in our earthly lives. One's experience of the consuming fire of God (one might call it, the 'eternal' fire) may be dependent on one's view of who God is. This idea is kind of like C.S. Lewis' explanation where he said that those in hell are actually experiencing the presence of God. Since they despise God, and want nothing to do with Him, it is His presence which disturbs them the most. But for the believer, God's presence is restorative and is what we yearn for. Yet God remains a consuming fire. Perhaps purgatorial cleansing is a freeing and restorative experience. If purgatory is real, it would seem that the experience of it would teach us more about the holiness of God and the ugliness of sin. But if we are immediately ushered into a perfect existence after death, perhaps we would skip over certain lessons God may want to teach us about His own holiness and our own sinfulness. Maybe there is more to learn, even in the afterlife, before the inauguration of the universalized kingdom of God. On the other hand, I don't want to belittle the atonement of Jesus nor His power to completely forgive and reconcile us to God. It's possible that the doctrine of purgatory does just that, and is therefore untrue. However, if it is true, I would hope to not be surprised at its existence when I die, but rather be prepared and willing to submit to the will of God.

[steve]

These are good things to reflect upon, Rich. There is much about the righteous judgments of God that are beyond our knowledge:

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? (Rom.11:33-34)

One thing we are told clearly enough is that there is a danger to us of being "condemned with the world" if we do not respond to God's chastisements in this life:

For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. (1 Cor.11:30-32)

Here a church had many sick members, and had lost a few to death. Why? Because they were sinning at the love feasts, and God was chastening them with sickness and physical death. This chastening, Paul said, is God's way of bringing correction to the church, so that (having been corrected) they will not be condemned with the world. If correction does not achieve it goals, it would seem, then being condemned with the world will be the only option left.

It is thus clear that, one way or another, the Christians will experience the judgment of God (either in the form of chastening or in the final condemnation) if they sin without repentance. If we judge ourselves—that is, examine and correct our own misbehavior—then such correction will be deemed unnecessary by God.

God, therefore, is looking for improvement from us here. What His policy may be for those after this life's lessons are over remains a mystery.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Thanks for your comments, Steve. It encourages me to respond appropriately to God's chastening. It also reminds me that I may not get a clear-cut answer on this topic. Perhaps I will in the future, but as of now it does remain a mystery to me.

Perhaps some of my points (or the direction I was going in) was not fully made clear. I'm totally 'with you' in regards to the possibility of a Christian devolving to the place where they can be condemned with the world. In a case like that, it would be to their own spiritual suicide if eternal torment or conditional immortality is true. If universal reconciliation is true, then it would subject them to post-mortem correction. But my main question is about the possibility of a genuine Christian (who endures to the end, and is overall faithful to Christ, yet sometimes stumbles) having the need of correction in the next life despite their sincere devotion to Christ in this life. The possibility might still remain to have to progress in holiness after death.

Also, God will judge even a sincere Christian's bad deeds... and I don't know what that means. I don't understand why God would even have to bring those things to remembrance if in fact they are fully purged from their account. As Keith Green sang, and as it is often preached: "When I hear the praises start, My child, I want to rain upon you blessings that will fill your heart. I see no stain upon you, because you are My child and you know Me, to Me you're only holy, nothing that you've done remains, only what you do for Me". I tend to believe this is the case... but why didn't Paul therefore say, "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive the good deeds we have done for the Lord. Our bad deeds will not be mentioned for the blood of Christ has erased these things from His memory"?

Therefore, perhaps there is still a different category that is separate from being "condemned with the world" but still needing further correction, discipline, and exercise toward godliness... even in the next life.

[jriccitelli]

To recieve rewards, or the loss of rewards. The unbeliever does not recieve reward, only believers. This is "...the 'different' category that is separate from being "condemned with the world" The sense that a person goes through fire in verse 15 is still refering to 'his' works going through testing. The believer stands to gain or lose rewards, the ungodly and sinner loses his life.

To think that a believer pays for his own sins is to not be a believer.
I would interpret 1 Cor.3 in light of chap. 1

7 ... awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
...23 but we preach Christ crucified (Not me) , to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

Whenever i want a quick summary of the Gospel message, I reread 1st Peter, and to wrap up the deeper end of the Gospel; 1st John.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
(I Peter 1:3-7)

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin...9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (! John 1:7-9)

I think there is no reason to think the man of verse 1 Cor 3:17 is the 'you' of verse 16, or the same person of verse 15. I think Paul is reminding the people of Gods dealing with people under the Law, as an illustration to some that indeed God will 'destroy' (Cut off a believer also) a person for blasphemy, not simply punish.

Jesus taught the Law, yet at the same time fullfilling it, we are either in Him or not.
Enduring to the end 'always' seems to be in context with the 'persecution and hate' the world will, did, and will continue to do to the believer. not to gain salvation but because we do, have saving faith, which is at odds with the world.

[RICHinCHRIST]

To recieve rewards, or the loss of rewards. The unbeliever does not recieve reward, only believers. This is "...the 'different' category that is separate from being "condemned with the world" The sense that a person goes through fire in verse 15 is still refering to 'his' works going through testing. The believer stands to gain or lose rewards, the ungodly and sinner loses his life.

That makes sense to me, and is definitely a possible interpretation. I wonder though if it's still possible that the fire could be referring to a corrective process for the one whose works proved to be unworthy to God. Paul still did say that believers will receive the things done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Cor. 5). Receiving rewards for their good deeds? Yes, what a wonderful undeserved gift! Receiving rewards for their bad deeds? What does that mean, other than correction?

To think that a believer pays for his own sins is to not be a believer.
I would interpret 1 Cor.3 in light of chap. 1

7 ... awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
...23 but we preach Christ crucified (Not me) , to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

Whenever i want a quick summary of the Gospel message, I reread 1st Peter, and to wrap up the deeper end of the Gospel; 1st John.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
(I Peter 1:3-7)

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin...9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (! John 1:7-9)

I think there is no reason to think the man of verse 1 Cor 3:17 is the 'you' of verse 16, or the same person of verse 15. I think Paul is reminding the people of Gods dealing with people under the Law, as an illustration to some that indeed God will 'destroy' (Cut off a believer also) a person for blasphemy, not simply punish.

Jesus taught the Law, yet at the same time fullfilling it, we are either in Him or not.
Enduring to the end 'always' seems to be in context with the 'persecution and hate' the world will, did, and will continue to do to the believer. not to gain salvation but because we do, have saving faith, which is at odds with the world.

I don't know if post-mortem correction for a Christian would necessitate them "paying the penalty" for their own sins (except in the case of the parable in Matthew 18). If penal substitution is true (which I currently believe is the case, although I have begun questioning it), then if there is a post-mortem correction for certain Christians, it would be more of a "corrective discipline", not a purgatorial "paying off their own sins". I've always thought that the idea of purgatory belittles the cross of Christ and the forgiveness which is offered through His sacrifice (and this might be true). But I wonder if there is still the possibility for Christian correction in the intermediate state even though Christ has forgiven them fully. Just because one is forgiven doesn't mean that they have learned their lesson fully. I find it hard to imagine the scenario that Christians immediately become perfect at death. I guess the question comes down to whether we learn all of the lessons God wants us to learn before we die. Perhaps we will... and therefore after-death correction would be unnecessary. But even as the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3-5... he doesn't even really know his own heart, and cannot see its depths. Only God can. Perhaps there are depths to our own human hearts where deep-seeded wickedness remains that still hasn't been revealed to us yet. Do we just automatically become 100% holy once we die? Well, I sure hope so! I trust in God's power. But I can't say with absolute confidence that I may not need correction after this life. Perhaps the intermediate state is a state of continual growth in holiness. This doesn't have to be a "paying off your sins" penalty... but rather the next level after "Holiness 101", after we have passed the prerequisites of this life.

[steve7150]

I think the consummation of the ages is in 1st Cor 15

"For just as in Adam all die, SO ALSO in Christ all will be made alive. But EACH in his own order, Christ the firstfruits , afterward at his coming the people of Christ. Then comes the end , when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death. For he has put everything under his feet. But when it says everything is put under him, it is obvious that He who puts everything under him is the exception. And when EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO HIM , then the son himself will also be subject to Him who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all." 1st Cor 15.22-28




So evil and rebellion and death are destroyed , therefore eternal torment is not a biblical option IMO. Then Paul says "everything is subject to him" and also "God will be all in all" , which can mean either, all who are leftover or literally everyone who has ever lived. The way it sounds to me is that post mortem salvation is very possible and ultimately the majority will be purged and reap what they sowed and will be subjects of Christ in the kingdom at some time in the future, each in his own order.

[jriccitelli]

Concerning Romans 2:1-16
Question; "Paul is writing to Christians (Rom. 1:7). Why does he speak as though a Christian can store up wrath against himself in the day of judgment? (2:5-6)

Although Paul has addressed the letter to 'the beloved of God in Rome', Paul would expect it to be read to a large audience, and certainly within any gathering there would be people on different stages of commitment or obiedience to the Gospel, so the letter is a pursuasive document meant to instruct many believers 'and' unbelievers. The content is in not addressing them personally. (Paul had not yet visited the church in Rome)
So Paul is outlining the wrath and judgment to befall 'all' the unrighteousness of men, therefore 'all' men, Jew and Gentile, "who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
Though not a direct parallel with rewards, it is a contrast of 'the riches of kindness' (As you are 'Rich' in Christ)
with the 'storing up of wrath'.
Question; For God to render to "each one according to his deeds" would seem to indicate that every action will have its respective reward.
There are two groups here, and ultimately two different judgments.
8 "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth... but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good. (Romans 2:8-10)
God will render to each man according to what he has done, but there is a division at some point between the sheep and the goats, the redeemed and the unrepentant. It seems that there are two different judgments. One for those in Christ, one for those outside. For the one wrath, for the other life. After the books are opened, the believer will stand to gain or lose rewards, the sinner and unrighteous servant will be sentenced to many stripes or less, according to what he has done.

Question; The Gentiles spoken of here must be Christians since they have the law "written on their hearts"..?
I never thought of verse 2:15 referring to the new Covenant, I am sure this is referring to the God given 'conscience' available to all men, and the awareness of God referred to in verse 1:19-20. Paul is contrasting the world of 'all' Gentiles, unrighteous men, barbarians, wise and foolish, with the Jews. This culminates in "every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God (Rom 3:19)

Concerning 2 Corinthians 5:9-11
Q. Will "All people, including Christians will stand before the judgment."
Where as Romans 1-2 speaks of the Judgment upon all men, the judgement 'seat' of Christ in 2Cor. seems to be the Believers 'hearing'. Paul is 'compelled' by his fear of God to persuade 'men', I think Paul is not establishing a fear of judgment (Vs 5:11), but explaining his compulsion to preach, and give courage, that is why it seems Paul is beside himself (Vs.5:13) Paul often has a larger group in mind in his letters than just 'believers', as in vs. 2:15-17.

Questions: Why must Christians be judged?
God often speaks of rewards, and although 'we are unprofitable servants', It seems God still wants to give rewards, "Store up for yourselves treasure in heaven", 'an unfailing treasure in heaven (Luke 12:33)
I personally think the treasure in heaven could be other people, and friends. But none the less there is a storing of something good for our faithfulness.

[jriccitelli]

One thing that would be tough, is I always wondered if God will reveal to us (At the judgment seat of Christ) 'privately' and individually 'all' the things we have been forgiven of, this would have an effect on us, all those things we overlook and ignored, those sins we discount as insignificant, this would certainly make our salvation and forgiveness overwhelming and personal to all of us, even though we know 'He is not counting our trespasses against us' (2 Cor 5:19)
But I think the overwhelming evidence from scripture is that we look forward to the appearing of our Savior, looking forward to the joy!
I can not fathom the Bride of Christ, nor any member of her, sent in any form, or sense, to a place of purgatory.
Jesus says "Where I Am you will be also!", take comfort, "I am with you always"

[RICHinCHRIST]

Concerning Romans 2:1-16
Question; "Paul is writing to Christians (Rom. 1:7). Why does he speak as though a Christian can store up wrath against himself in the day of judgment? (2:5-6)

Because Paul's is explaining the Gospel (The revealing of the Righteous and Wrath of God) to Christians, the content is in no way addressing them personally. (Paul had not yet visited the church in Rome)
So Paul is outlining the wrath and judgment to befall 'all' the unrighteousness of men, therefore 'all' men, Jew and Gentile, "who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
Though not a direct parallel with rewards, it is a contrast of 'the riches of kindness' with the 'storing up of wrath'. (As you are 'Rich in Christ)

I have always thought the same thing about this passage. I have always thought that Paul is making a distinction between believers and non-believers. I have not completely disregarded that possibility (in fact, I think it is probably a correct interpretation). My questions in the original post were just that: questions. I have begun to wrestle with why so many early sincere Christians have believed in a purgatory of some kind, and even of the possibility of one being lost after one willful sin. Those early church fathers were much nearer to Christ than myself, and I am willing to consider their opinions. One question I have had about Romans 2:1-16 is that Paul seems to be turning the tables over on those who know God in verses 2-3.


We claim, as believers, that the unrighteous will suffer the righteous judgment for their sins in the next life. However, believers also commit the same things that unbelievers have committed. Christians who sin are even in a worse category because they know better than the heathen. Why does Paul say that we will not escape the judgment, if we do the same things? Perhaps he is referring to deceived hypocrites who claim to follow God but judge others, and actually live for themselves. But what Christian can say that they have perfectly kept the law and have not done or thought things which non-believers will receive just punishment for? Will Christians escape the judgment of God?

Question; For God to render to "each one according to his deeds" would seem to indicate that every action will have its respective reward. There are two groups here, and ultimately two different judgments.
8 "those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth... but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good. (Romans 2:8-10)
God will render to each man according to what he has done, but there is a division at some point between the sheep and the goats, the redeemed and the unrepentant. It seems that there are two different judgments. One for those in Christ, one for those outside. For the one wrath, for the other life. After the books are opened, the believer will stand to gain or lose rewards, the sinner and unrighteous servant will be sentenced to many stripes or less, according to what he has done.

I tend to think this as well... you may be absolutely correct.

Question; The Gentiles spoken of here must be Christians since they have the law "written on their hearts"..?
I never thought of verse 2:15 referring to the new Covenant, I am sure this is referring to the God given 'conscience' available to all men, and the awareness of God referred to in verse 1:19-20. Paul is contrasting the world of 'all' Gentiles, unrighteous men, barbarians, wise and foolish, with the Jews. This culminates in "every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God (Rom 3:19)

I have always thought that too. I no longer think that since it says that the "law" is written on the Gentiles hearts. Where in the Bible does it say that the heathen have the "law" written on their hearts? Paul uses the word "nomos" (law) many times in this epistle. I see no reason to interpret this word any differently than what I think Paul knew as the law: The Torah. What other law has Paul ever spoken about? Certainly the law of God is written only on Christian's hearts. Also, it says that these Gentiles "do the things written in the law". I know of no passage in Scripture that says heathen can be saved by obeying a law written on their hearts.

Questions: Why must Christians be judged?
God often speaks of rewards, and although 'we are unprofitable servants', It seems God still wants to give rewards, "Store up for yourselves treasure in heaven", 'an unfailing treasure in heaven (Luke 12:33)
I personally think the treasure in heaven could be other people, and friends. But none the less there is a storing of something good for our faithfulness.

My question was not why Christian will be judged in general. My question was why God would have to judge Christians for their bad deeds. I do not understand why they will have to be mentioned if they are no longer on God's mind due to His forgiveness. Perhaps He will just bring them up just so we see how bad we were and it will make us feel remorse. Then, perhaps He might say, "Well, now you will have less rewards because of those bad things you did". Maybe that is true. But I don't see why it's not possible that God may want to correct us for those things and show us where we erred. Like I said, this does not have to be a "timeout" in the fiery furnace for 10 or 100 years. It could just be a very humbling and purifying correction by His Spirit. I want to be holy, so I wouldn't mind such a correction! I don't know what the judgment will be like, but I know the first words I'll be saying when I get there are: "God, be merciful to me a sinner!"

One thing that would be tough, is I always wondered if God will reveal to us (At the judgment seat of Christ) 'privately' and individually 'all' the things we have been forgiven of, this would have an effect on us, all those things we overlook and ignored, those sins we discount as insignificant, this would certainly make our salvation and forgiveness overwhelming and personal to all of us, even though we know 'He is not counting our trespasses against us' (2 Cor 5:19)
But I think the overwhelming evidence from scripture is that we look forward to the appearing of our Savior, looking forward to the joy!
I can not fathom the Bride of Christ, nor any member of her, sent in any form, or sense, to a place of purgatory.
Jesus says "Where I Am you will be also!", take comfort, "I am with you always"

I agree that the idea of purgatory is very repulsive. I do not want to believe in it. But I will not merely believe only what I want to believe. Many godly people have believed in purgatory. Even the early Christians believed it was possible to be lost after one willful sin after baptism. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, then I think universal reconciliation will be the only possible view of hell since nearly everyone will be there! And Jesus said, "For everyone will be seasoned with fire" right after talking about Gehenna. I do not know what that means.

But I do agree that the coming of Christ will be a glorious day. I think after the resurrection everything will be completely different (like steve7150 said... death will be done away with). I wonder, though, if the intermediate state (after death, before the resurrection) will be an opportunity for God's people to become more holy before that great Day of resurrection when Christ returns. Perhaps God will judge us individually before the "last day". Maybe that's too premillenial for me to say. But I've been thinking about historic premillenialism lately... Anyway, I'm just rambling now. I have to go to sleep!

[Jon]

RICHinCHRIST,

It is not a surprise (to me) that the early Church fathers taught about Purgatory. They were all Catholic, either Roman or Orthodox (although I tend to side with Roman!) Protestant interpretations of the Bible that do not include Purgatory did not really gain momentum until the 15th century as far as I can tell. What you have to ask yourself is, why would God let the early Church fathers be so wrong about this crucial topic for 1500 years? Maybe the early Church fathers had it right when they talked about Purgatory... if so what Christian Church agrees with this Truth?

You sound like you have an unbiased desire to search for the Truth. Keep asking questions. This is how I came to accept that being Lutheran was an error and being Catholic was the True Faith. This is a longer discussion than we can have here.

Why would you say that Purgatory has a bad rap because of the Roman Catholic Church? Please explain what you mean, I'm curious and not looking to trick you or debate. Do you outright reject the possibility that they may be right but you're searching for the Truth somewhere else? You are welcome to send a message privately to discuss it.

One question that comes to mind is, what is the point of final judgement, if all Christians are saved? I mentioned it on another thread, and it applies here, I highly recommend Robert Sungenis' book called "Not By Faith Alone" though his abridged version "How Can I Get To Heaven?" is much easier to get through.

My prayers are with you in your search for Truth.

Jon