Purgatory vs. Universalism

[Homer]

Following is a compilation of some of the scriptural arguments used by Catholics to support their doctrine of purgatory. It seems to me they have better arguments for their position than universalists do for theirs, although I agree with neither. Both appear to use scripture in improbable ways, assume certain things, appeal to God's character, and claim their view to be the ancient belief of the church. And the Catholic view seems at least as logical and have better scriptural support:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

[Paidion]

Apparently the catholics came up with purgatory after the eternal torment view became published by Augustine and his contemporaries . With their understanding of purgatory, the catholics could still accept the Christian writings which previously stated the remedial aspects of God's judgments along with the new teaching of eternal torment.

Origen and others understood the remediation of sinners to occur through God's correction in Gehenna. Now it became God's correction in purgatory, while the souls in Gehenna would be tortured forever.

[steve]

Homer,

I am interested in your reasons for finding these verses more in line with purgatory than with universal reconciliation. You say the purgatory view seems more scriptural, but why? What is there in any of the cited verses that would not as easily support universal reconciliation?

Of course, many of the verses cited have no obvious bearing on the afterlife (e.g., Matt. 5:26,18:34 / Luke 12:58-59 / 1 Peter 1:6-7 / Zech.13:8-9 / Mal.3:2-3), and are taken quite out of context.

And where is it ever said that Onesiphorus was dead when Paul wrote of him?

Those verses that actually may have bearing on the afterlife (e.g., Matt. 5:48; 12:32 / Luke 12:47-48; 16:19-31 / Heb.12:14, 23 / Jude 1:23) are only consigned to "purgatory" by the expedient of "There is no "A" in heaven, and there is no "B" in hell, therefore this must refer to purgatory." For example:

Matt. 12:32 – "Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell."

Luke 12:47-48 - "in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master."

Luke 16:19-31 - "there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell "

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - "there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell."

Heb. 12:23 - "those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect."

Jude 23 - "People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell."

The entire argument, in each case, relies on the speculation that "A" cannot occur in heaven, and "B" cannot occur in hell. I don't see how these speculations can be scripturally justified.

[mattrose]

I don't see any good way around the existence of purgatory to be honest, if by purgatory one means a place of purging before one is 'ready' for heaven. I don't agree with the notion of it being a place independant of heaven and/or hell. I think it will be in either one, the other, or both. I doubt God will fast-forward the sanctification process in our momentary transition between life on earth and life in heaven, so some purging period may await us in heaven. Nor do I see any reason why God's nature of love and grace would be discontinued toward those in hell.... so should any of the wicked, there, desire to get right with God via the (purging?) fires, I think God would receive them (I simply don't know if any in hell will indeed desire this right relationship).

If I had to guess I'd imagine that there will be some definite purging in heaven and the possibility of purging in hell.

[Jepne]

To take off on what Matt Rose said about people in hell being purged, I think of an event here on earth someone related about when he was in Mexico:

there was a man who was totally corrupt and bound, and when they prayed for the man, it was as though the man woke up and said, "What took you so long?" Although he was totally 'gone' in sin and demonically bound, he may not have been consciously thinking, "Get me out of here" - but when the word of the Lord came, he recognized it.

I heard this story well before I ever heard of 'universal reconciliation' and it provoked me to wonder what would have happened if the man had died before this wonderful thing happened to him - would he have just been one of the 'unlucky' ones ? The Lord does not teach us to believe in luck.

I was in a 'hospital church' for many years and there were so many there - an ex-satan-worshipper, a woman who gave her newborn babies to be sacrificed on Halloween, an ex- Mafia hitman, a gentle man who had had a compound with gun towers guarding it, down on the border where he ran drugs. All completely new people saved from out of the pit.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Homer,

Good to be back on the forum and corresponding with you again. I actually began to question some of those New Testament passages as proof for purgatory over two years ago. I was thankful to hear Steve's teaching on the Three Views of Hell because it gave me more to think about. I will bump my original first post so you can check it out. We're all progressing (I hope)!

The Catholics have given me something to think about though. Is it not possible that all three views may end up occuring? Perhaps there are people with noble and good hearts who would have followed Christ if they had heard a genuine gospel presentation (Luke 8:15). Therefore, these would be reconciled through God's purging.

Now consider atheists who boast that there is no afterlife. Would it be unlike Jesus to say, "according to your faith, let it be unto you"? That would fulfill Conditional Immortality.

And although eternal torment is most difficult for me to swallow, perhaps there are some so wicked (perhaps New Covenant Pharisees) who would suffer such a fate?

There is much conjecture in this post, but I am almost moving into a completely agnostic position on hell, since so many passages are either a) ambiguous, or b) mysterious. There may be a better way to spend my time than thinking about judgments which are up to God alone.

But to conclude, I have come to terms with the possibility of there being a purgatory. It's not only the Catholics who believe in purgatory. There are some Protestants too (Chuck Missler comes to mind). If there was such a place, I would humble myself under the mighty hand of God. I trust the resurrection will suffice, but who am I?

[Homer]

Hi Steve:

You wrote:

I am interested in your reasons for finding these verses more in line with purgatory than with universal reconciliation. You say the purgatory view seems more scriptural, but why? What is there in any of the cited verses that would not as easily support universal reconciliation?

Let us consider just one for now:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Reading this passage alone with the Catholic explanation, without considering Jesus' many judgement statements, would lead one to see that it is an entirely plausible expalanation. Yet Jesus' judgement statements seem to rule it out, the same as they do universalism. But if you do not believe Jesus' judgement statements rule out universalism, how can you say they rule out the Catholic doctrine of purgatory? It seems to me purgatory must be eliminated by some other scriptures. What would they be?

I just read a list of scriptures cited by universalists as their best arguments and, IMO, they are much weaker than the Catholic argument from scripture for purgatory, which I also find unconvincing.

The entire argument, in each case, relies on the speculation that "A" cannot occur in heaven, and "B" cannot occur in hell. I don't see how these speculations can be scripturally justified.

And neither is repentance and conversion in hell anything more than speculation. Where is it stated in scripture? Why does Jesus make no mention of it in His judgement statements? I see speculation in both of their positions.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Apparently the catholics came up with purgatory after the eternal torment view became published by Augustine and his contemporaries . With their understanding of purgatory, the catholics could still accept the Christian writings which previously stated the remedial aspects of God's judgments along with the new teaching of eternal torment.

How can you say "new teaching of eternal torment" when you have been shown quotations from second century "fathers", including Justin, that clearly show they held the eternal torment view? And belief in purgatory certainly appears to have been held prior to Augustine. Following is a quotation from Clement of Alexandria. Here he clearly references some sort of purgatory for believers for sins committed after baptism:

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

Do you take Clement's statement as support for universalism?

And another statement from Tertullian:

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

[Singalphile]

I can't understand the teaching of purgatory as any type of punishment. Jesus bore and paid the price for all our sins, did He not? I suppose we will grow and learn when we are there with Him, but I would just call that heaven, not purgatory or purging.

As for those who do not confess/receive/believe in Jesus, it seems to me that God appointed for man to die and then face judgement (Hebrews 9), and then those condemned die once again in the "second death" (Rev 20:14). It is difficult for me to see any teaching about any place/condition/state of purgatory for the lost in that scenario or in those verses quoted in the first post. Few of those verses, if any, positively teach anything about the afterlife, IMO. (I did look them all up, and I thank you for the references, Homer.)

Additional rounds of judgment between or after the first and second death can't be completely ruled out, I suppose. It is difficult when "death" doesn't always mean death, and "eternal" doesn't always mean eternal, and "destruction" doesn't always mean destruction, and so on, as you know.

[mattrose]

I can't understand the teaching of purgatory as any type of punishment.Jesus bore and paid the price for all our sins, did He not?

I agree. For a while, a lot of Roman Catholics were thinking of purgatory along those lines, but there is a trend back toward the sanctifying view of purgatory.

I suppose we will grow and learn when we are there with Him, but I would just call that heaven, not purgatory or purging.

Yep, that's my thought on the matter as well. I have no problem with their being a purging component of heaven.

As for those who do not confess/receive/believe in Jesus, it seems to me that God appointed for man to die and then face judgement (Hebrews 9), and then those condemned die once again in the "second death" (Rev 20:14).

Additional rounds of judgment between or after the first and second death can't be completely ruled out, I suppose. It is difficult when "death" doesn't always mean death, and "eternal" doesn't always mean eternal, and "destruction" doesn't always mean destruction, and so on, as you know.

I think that's a very fair perspective. It sounds like you are saying that the wicked cease to exist in some manner, perhaps so soon after judgment that there won't be much time (if any) for second (or third, fourth, etc.) chances. Yet, you keep open the possibility that such a thing could happen in absence (and ambiguity) of clear evidence one way or the other.