1957 murderer convicted

[Singalphile]

If he is guilty, I think he should be sentenced and punished as prescribed by their law.

I do not think that state punishment should have anything to do with how remorseful or "repaired" the criminal seems to be (unless the judge or some device accurately reads mind and knows the future).

The idea of "restorative (or reparative) justice" sounds somewhat appealing, but I have great doubts about its effectiveness (or rather, the government's capacity for effectiveness). I rather think that state punishment should simply fit the crime. That's about all I could expect from our modern, secular governments.

Whatever one may think about it, I think that it's impossible for a Bible-believing Christian to argue that capital punishment - or government punishment in general - is itself immoral. There is Gen 9:6, God's law for Israel (e.g., Ex 21:12), and Romans 13:4, that I can think of.

The connection between this topic and hell is... hard to say.

[Paidion]

Singaphile, if you are going to get your beliefs from the records of Moses and the Law of Moses, then you should also insist that children who rebel against their parents be stoned to death, and that a woman who defends her husband from the man who is beating him up by grabbing his genitals, should have her hand cut off.

As for Romans 13:4, Paul states that a governmental authority "is a minister of God, an avenger for the purpose of anger to the one practising evil." The Greek is "τῳ το κακον πρασσοντι". The last word is a present active participle. This means to the one presently practising evil. Paul doesn't say "to the one who committed an evil act" (past tense). Obviously, one who is practising evil has NOT repented. Paul's statement does not address cases of past wrongdoing.

All agree that such a one who has not repented, should be corrected by means of psychological programs or community work so that he can learn to empathize with other people, or, if nothing else works, to be incarcerated in an uncomfortable environment with authorities constantly working toward his reform.

But as for a truly repentant person, why should he be punished? Do you think God should punish you for your past wrongdoing, even though you have repented and been regenerated by God's grace? Do you think the government should punish you if you commited crimes in the past, say stole an item from a store, even though God has forgiven you and delivered you from the mind set you once had? What purpose would it serve? What would you do NOW, in such a case? Would you report your previous theft to the police so that they could fine you or give you a short jail sentence? Or would you go to the one from whom you had stolen, and repay him for what you stole? If the former, you are opting for punitive "justice". If the latter, then you are opting for restorative justice.

In the case of one who has killed and repented, he should offer restitution as far as is possible to his victim's family. This is one way in which he can visibly demonstrate his remorse and repentance. The family may or may not accept it, depending on their state of mind.

But the main reason there should be no capital punishment is that so many mistakes have been made. Many who did not kill anyone, have been put to death for murder. Whatever your belief, it is better that a killer not be put to death than for an innocent person to be exectuted. The latter should be rendered impossible, and I know of no other way to do it.

[Jepne]

So, are you saying that I should have turned over to the State for legalized murder, the young repentant Christian woman whom I had in my home, who bore babies for Satanic sacrifice on Halloween? Or my Christian brother, the former hitman, now a family man who is bearing good fruit in the community?

In Canada, the Restorative Justice work is done by the Mennonite Christians who began it. They are known for their love for their neighbors and the good works that come with such love. It sounds appealing because it is what Christianity is about! Why don’t you read up on it – read about the principles behind it and the success it has been and then see if it is still only ‘somewhat’ appealing.

As far as OT law goes, you might consider how many times Jesus said, “It has been said of old, but now I say. . .” His Kingdom is not of this world.

I don’t see Romans 13 as a continuation of the OT law, but a guideline for US to pay our taxes and obey the speed limit, not to demand the blood of OTHERS who break the law.

To not take a repentant person at his word when he has born the fruit of it is to sit in judgment of him, not what we are called to do as disciples of Jesus Christ, who came to teach us by example to love and respect our fellow man. Would you like someone to ask you to please list your past sins so we may remind YOU of them?

You also might consider the families and communities that are heartbroken and torn apart because of the injustices in the secular systems of this world, when the innocent are badgered into false confessions, represented by lazy underpaid lawyers, challenged by crooked prosecutors who hide exonerating information, and sentenced to death by bamboozled juries.

It is hard to face the fact that our state and local officials have done such things that are such a blight on the nation, but if you get busy on the web, you will find that I am not far off at all. There are many websites and many reviews on Amazon of books about such things. I have read a number of such books. I believe that is, in part, why a certain politician had such a successful election among the poor a few short years ago.
I pray that I have said something that would encourage you to look deeper into the reasons why you would want sinners to be treated in such a way that would not lead them to repentance and a fruitful life, not only for them, but the families of their victims as well.

[Singalphile]

Thank you both for your thoughtful responses. I am not so smart that you cannot imagine my answers (or better ones) to most of your questions. I'll focus on a few statements.

I do believe that the laws for Israel (and the OT in general) came from God. It does not follow that I should insist that we enact those laws today, and I don't. But if those laws came from God, then I won't accept that they are immoral laws. I am familiar with your views about that, I think, Paidion.

To insist that Romans 13 only addresses government's role in crimes currently in progress is, I think, an attempt to subvert the teachings of the passage. A good interpretation does not render a passage practically meaningless. Like it or not, I think it teaches that God has ordained that governments should avenge/punish evil (not simply stop it while it's in the act). I don't actually like it, because I don't know of any government that I trust to define or punish evildoing well (for some of the reasons Jepne mentioned), but I trust God in the matter. I also do not see that the passage only addresses tax laws and the like (though that's apparently what the Romans had asked about?).

It is a somewhat emotional issue, it seems, though not for me (unlike some other issues). Certainly as a "conservative", small-government type of guy, I have never had any fondness for government nor the death penalty, but as I said, I do not think it can be said that the death penalty is wrong b/c of the passages I mentioned (and others I'm sure we could think of).

Lastly, the idea of government mandated and operated "psychological programs" or restoration centers sounds much more harmful to me than the possibility that anyone might be wrongly punished. Christ-centered Christian programs of that sort (prison ministries and such) sound great and I do support them. But when it comes to government, well, I think it's best to keep it on a pretty short leash and keep things very simple for it.

[Jepne]

Thank you for engaging in this topic and giving others the opportunity to think these things through and get their thoughts on paper.

“It does not follow that I should insist that we enact those laws today, and I don't.”
Then, why would you pick out the most severe and final of all those laws to institute today? And to be executed on a possibly innocent person?

“I don't know of any government that I trust to define or punish evildoing well (for some of the reasons Jepne mentioned), but I trust God in the matter.”
You trust God for what? When they punish evildoing badly, and want to execute an innocent man, what do you trust God for?

"It is a somewhat emotional issue, it seems, though not for me (unlike some other issues)."
Jesus is emotionally involved with us, with a love that is stronger than death.

"I have never had any fondness for government nor the death penalty"
If you think it is a moral law, and you believe that Jesus is behind it, why should you not LOVE it, and gladly see it administered to even someone near and dear to you, guilty or innocent? Would you be prepared to do that?

"the idea of government mandated and operated "psychological programs" or restoration centers sounds much more harmful to me than the possibility that anyone might be wrongly punished."
So, I don’t see how a Christian in relationship with Jesus Christ could think that it is better that an innocent person should be executed by the state than for criminals to get psychological help to see where they went wrong and face up to their wrongdoing. In other words, it is better for government to kill innocent people than to help the not-so-innocent come to repentance? Psychology programs come short of truly Christian help, but they are not evil; they are geared to help people see where they went wrong. I have a Christian friend who attended one in prison recently, saw that it was effective with some of the prisoners, and he learned some things himself.

I have been a Conservative for many years, listening to various talk shows. I heard Ann Coulter being interviewed about her book on mob rule – very interesting. Next time she was interviewed, it was about the man in Georgia they were in such a hurry to execute, lest they have to admit he was railroaded, and Hannity asked her about it. Her reply was on the lines of “Goodness sake, why is everyone in a tizzy about it – most Americans are in favour of the death penalty anyway.” Like, the mob has spoken – kill the guy.

Then I heard a soundbite from a Conservative convocation where the good-hearted Americans were cheering at the mention of the death penalty. I had to realize I must follow Jesus Christ and no political party.

If you think it is important that we have a Conservative president, try going back and righting the wrongs of the justice system, especially the blacks who have gotten treated so inhumanely, especially in the South. That would go a long way toward removing the blinders of the populace in regard to the ‘hope and change’ illusion – but you can’t, because they are all dead, and many of the survivors in their families and communities have died in their souls. Consider this - Christian Conservatives are in large part responsible for the government we have today with their self-righteous 'law and order'. We have not won the hearts of the people. We have not demonstrated Jesus or represented Him.

Again, thank you - these are things I think about much of the time, and there are very few people who can and will engage in discussion about them. It takes a strong stomach to go into prisons on death row and hear the stories of people who have messed up so badly. He took our infirmities - He goes to death row - He said, if you visit people in prison, you have visited me. Interesting, eh?

[Singalphile]

Hi again.

First, let me issue a reminder: I didn't actually write anything in favor of the death penalty! I just said that it seems difficult to condemn it outright given my interpretation of the aforementioned passages. That's about it.

So some of the questions - good questions - can be left to others to answer if they wish.

As for what I meant about trusting God about Romans 13: I just meant that I have to trust that God does actually ordain governments to punish those who are practicing evil and I need to obey the laws of the land, as I understand that passage to teach.

As I see it, governments (i.e., our elected reps) should pass laws (but rarely!) and then just focus on executing them fairly and consistently as they are written. That's their job. And people like some of you all here are doing what should be part of our job, helping and comforting victims and criminals and their families in the name of Jesus. Unwise to mix these things, imho.

Coincidentally - or not - I was listening to TNP this morning and Steve took this question: "How do you see the death penalty being applied or not applied?" It's the April 11, 2008 hour long show, right at the 13 minute mark.

[Jepne]

Good morning. OK, your 'interpretation of the aforementioned passages' said to me that you were in favor of it.
Richard Wurmbrand, from having spent 11 years in a Rumanian prison being starved beaten and tortured for having preached the Gospel, has a different interpretation of Romans 13 than most. The Rumanians were into punishing allright.

Here in Canada, it is called Corrections Canada, and in most cases,it is hopefully so - there are some wonderful people in our corrections system, although we do have about the same proportion of police brutality, and prison guards who have as much character as some of the worst prisoners.

How do you comfort the family of someone who, though innocent, was executed according to a 'Christian law' -supported by Christians - what a disservice that does to the Gospel!

I will give Steve's program a listen. Thank you for the reference. Blessings!