Alternative Views of Hell

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:58 pm

I have read comments several times on this forum that those who reject Christ in this life will have the same attitude once they are resurrected. Why would someone come to this conclusion? Do you not think that going through death and the destruction of the flesh may serve to change someone's attitude? It could be that death is the great purifier that is required to bring about willing subjection to Christ. Isn't death the wages of sin?...or is it death plus torment in hell?

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:50 pm

I have read comments several times on this forum that those who reject Christ in this life will have the same attitude once they are resurrected. Why would someone come to this conclusion? Do you not think that going through death and the destruction of the flesh may serve to change someone's attitude? It could be that death is the great purifier that is required to bring about willing subjection to Christ. Isn't death the wages of sin?...or is it death plus torment in hell?

Hi Todd, we got sidetracked but i don't think death is what's meant by "aionios" correction.
And regarding attitude , on another forum i've been discussing Christ with an orthodox jewish women for about 18 months on and off. I asked her if she finds that on judgement day it turns out that Christ is in fact her judge, what would she do?
She said she would immediately become an atheist.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:07 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Hi Todd, we got sidetracked but i don't think death is what's meant by "aionios" correction.
And regarding attitude , on another forum i've been discussing Christ with an orthodox jewish women for about 18 months on and off. I asked her if she finds that on judgement day it turns out that Christ is in fact her judge, what would she do?
She said she would immediately become an atheist.

She may say that now, but after going through death and destruction she may awake with a whole new attitude.

Rev 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Todd

Post by **_TK** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:14 pm

todd wrote:

Don't you believe that there is a penalty for sin in this life? Do you believe your life in relationship with Christ is far better than without it? Aren't those reasons enough for someone to repent and follow Christ? Perhaps the whole Gospel message isn't about the afterlife, but about this life.

Yes, yes and yes to your 3 questions. As to the last statement, i would say agreed, but only partially so.

How do you deal with Jesus' parable of the rich guy who laid up for himself treasures in his barn, and decided to take his ease and eat drink and be merry? In that parable, God called him a "fool" because that very night his soul was required of him. it doesnt say the guy had a terrible life due to his sinful attitudes, rather it suggests his actions were foolish in light of eternity. that seems to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus elsewhere, where he states that people who do things purportedly for God but in actuality to get recognized by man earn their reward here, during this life. again, the implication is that there isnt going to be much awarding going on for these sorts after this life.

i guess what i am getting at is if the gospel message was about THIS life only, Jesus wasted his time comparing this life with the life to come.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm

It says "few find it". Seems to suggest effort on our part to follow and obey Christ. Look at all the "failures" God had in the OT, always judging his people. Why didn't he just do a better job leading? Maybe because we can rebel if we want? Beyond God's control, even. Why could this not extend to final judgment, where people never repent.

It always did and will always take effort, there are no free rides. IMO if christian universalism is true or something close to it then the lake of fire is not going to be any day at the beach.
Jesus said for some it would be better if a millstone were tied around their neck and they were tossed into the sea.
Like the repair guy in the Fram Oil filter commercial used to say "you can see me now or you can see me later."

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:55 am

TK wrote:i guess what i am getting at is if the gospel message was about THIS life only, Jesus wasted his time comparing this life with the life to come.

TK,

Of course you are correct, it is not about this life only.

1 Cor 15:19
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

My point is that IMO many of the passages that have been attributed to the afterlife are really speaking of this life. When Paul speaks of the resurrection (afterlife) he uses words like glorification, incorruptible, immortality and redemption of the body. But when he speaks of this life he uses words like eternal life. That's my take anyway. Of course, it may not be that simple.

Todd

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:28 pm

Here is an interesting quote from Jesus recorded in Luke. It brings up several points that are appropriate to this discussion.

Luke 20:27-38
27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 "Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?" 34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

The first item is from v35...

35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

It seems to me that Jesus is suggesting that not everyone will be resurrected - "those who are counted worthy." Could this be that Judgment Day is simply determining who will take part in the resurrection and those who are not worthy stay dead? This would be annihilation, but it would also exclude any post-resurrection punishment.

The second item is from v36...

36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Here Jesus says, "they can no longer die." I think it was Derek who suggested that the "destruction of death" was not speaking of the resurrection, but that it meant that no one would die anymore. Maybe this verse is supporting that view.

The third item is from v38...

38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive

Here Jesus says, "for to him all are alive." This is speaking of those who have died but are not yet resurrected. Would this include the just and the unjust? What are the ramifications of this?

Thoughts?

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:09 pm

35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

It seems to me that Jesus is suggesting that not everyone will be resurrected - "those who are counted worthy." Could this be that Judgment Day is simply determining who will take part in the resurrection and those who are not worthy stay dead? This would be annihilation, but it would also exclude any post-resurrection punishment.

I think you're reading a little to much into this very specific reply Jesus is making with reference to whether there will be marriage in heaven. The Sadducees just assumed all these people would just end up in heaven and Jesus is contrasting that only the ones who are counted as worthy are resurrected into heaven or "that age" meaning the age of being in the presence of the Lord upon death IMO.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:17 pm

38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive

Here Jesus says, "for to him all are alive." This is speaking of those who have died but are not yet resurrected. Would this include the just and the unjust? What are the ramifications of this?

IMO it refers to the justified in Christ , i believe the unjust sleep until the resurrection. Assuming the "Rich man and Lazarus" is not about the state of the souls of the unsaved which is my take, then as far as i know nothing is said about their souls so my default position is that they are sleeping.

Post by **_Sean** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:44 pm

Father_of_five wrote:I have read comments several times on this forum that those who reject Christ in this life will have the same attitude once they are resurrected. Why would someone come to this conclusion? Do you not think that going through death and the destruction of the flesh may serve to change someone's attitude? It could be that death is the great purifier that is required to bring about willing subjection to Christ. Isn't death the wages of sin?...or is it death plus torment in hell?

Todd

I don't think a resurrected person will be able to change their mind. I believe the resurrection takes place just before the judgment. In other words, now is the favorable time of salvation. When the resurrection occurs, there will be no more testing. We will be standing before the judge. Sure everyone who is lost will want to repent and will be sorry, but only because they have no more freedom. My children do the same thing. They sometimes only obey when punishment is at hand. But that is not repentance. When we are alive on earth we can choose what we will. That's what is judged. When there is no more opportunity, how is God to judge someone who, at the time of judgment says "sorry, I repent". If God put them back on the earth, it stands to reason they would go right back to sin, because that is what they want. They don't want to be punished either, so they will say anything they think will get them out of judgment. But God wants the heart.

Put simply, I don't think you can repent in a vacuum. I'm sure someone will say "They won't repent in a vacuum, they will be tormented in [fill in the blank] until they repent. Well, gee. Is that a real choice? No one would choose torment. Yet on earth they do, even though they know judgment is coming, they disobey because they are making a choice. Have what you want now, or store up treasure in heaven for later.

If someone doesn't love God on earth, why would they change their mind at (or after) judgment...a time when there is no more "opportunity to sin"? At this point they won't have a choice. If there is no choice, then they are simply made to be "saved" against their true desire to sin. Judgment may just be a place where you have an unending desire to sin without the ability to actually carry out that desire.

mdh wrote: The Bible does indeed give us "tools" for determining whether someone has this kind of relationship with God (ie: whether they HAVE "eternal" life). Whether or not they can repent after they die seems a separate question. I do not find anywhere in scripture where this question is clearly addressed.

But doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus, if giving an either or option would apply ones choice to the life they live in the body? And these choices are judged on judgment day? What is the point of judgment day if your given more opportunity to repent (logically leading to more judgment day[s])?

I just have a hard time seeing the point of God having a judgment day that is not final, when it seems to be stated as such.