Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

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Bookends
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Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by Bookends » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:01 am

Why couldn't God have just allowed these magicians' rods turn into snakes by God's power, to further harden (strengthen) Pharaoh's heart?

To suggest these magicians used trickery would also have to suggest that these magician new ahead of time of what tricks to prepare for. I suppose they could have known by divination, but still it is speculation at best.
"Was the prodigal son, after his penitential return and forgiveness, less obliged to conform to the laws of his Father’s house than before he left it? No indeed, but more so." A.W. Pink

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by dizerner » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:57 am

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mattrose
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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by mattrose » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:10 am

Bookends wrote:Why couldn't God have just allowed these magicians' rods turn into snakes by God's power, to further harden (strengthen) Pharaoh's heart?

To suggest these magicians used trickery would also have to suggest that these magician new ahead of time of what tricks to prepare for. I suppose they could have known by divination, but still it is speculation at best.
I think the main problem I would have with your suggestion is the fact that they eventually couldn't duplicate what God did through Moses.

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by MMathis » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:45 pm

I'm with mattrose on this. We have magicians today that can do amazing tricks. I sat in the Siegfried and Roy show and saw them make a tiger appear in an empty cage I was sitting 10 feet from. Now we know it was not real, what I saw, but it was also not demonic. It was just a great trick.

I would imagine they had some good tricksters in those days. No cameras or fully automated showrooms, just good showmanship.
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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by Bookends » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:22 am

mattrose wrote:
Bookends wrote:Why couldn't God have just allowed these magicians' rods turn into snakes by God's power, to further harden (strengthen) Pharaoh's heart?

To suggest these magicians used trickery would also have to suggest that these magician new ahead of time of what tricks to prepare for. I suppose they could have known by divination, but still it is speculation at best.
I think the main problem I would have with your suggestion is the fact that they eventually couldn't duplicate what God did through Moses.
I understand what you are saying, but it's also very possible that God did not allow them to duplicate the later plagues, and purhaps they even didn't want to: seeing that they caused much harm and damage to the Eygptians. The miracle with the snakes wasn't physically harmful to anyone (except purhaps to the egos of the magicians and Pharaoh), as the later plaques were. And even if the magicians practiced some sort of "magic" of the dark side, God could simply have allowed it. If we take into the account of Job, Satan could only do what God allowed, without that Satan could do nothing (but merely be an influence).

So now my question is this, did God simply limit or control what "magic" the magicians could do to deminstrate His power. If yes, God controls the power of what the enemy can do, the power or micacle is still His, it belongs to God, comes from God.
"Was the prodigal son, after his penitential return and forgiveness, less obliged to conform to the laws of his Father’s house than before he left it? No indeed, but more so." A.W. Pink

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by Bookends » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:38 am

dizerner wrote:The classic idea that it was done by demonic powers not only makes sense, but also figures in a prophetic metaphor, of the rod of Christ swallowing up the demonic powers on Calvary. The snakes are used to represent demonic powers also in their wilderness trials, where a snake on a rod represented the work of Calvary as well, removing the power and penalty of sin.
I undstand the symbols you present, makes sense, but I don't think it deminishes the possibility of God being behind the works of the magicians, allowing or enabling them to work or duplicate some of the miracles. As in my previous post, God even controls the power given to demons. Some times I think we tend to give Satan and his minions too much power or credit them as having what ablilities they have as their own. As deminstrated in Revelations 9 (Fifth trumpet) as well, when God granted them power to inflict harm upon the people, but not to kill them.
"Was the prodigal son, after his penitential return and forgiveness, less obliged to conform to the laws of his Father’s house than before he left it? No indeed, but more so." A.W. Pink

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by dizerner » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:37 am

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by Bookends » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:23 pm

dizerner wrote:
Bookends wrote:
dizerner wrote:The classic idea that it was done by demonic powers not only makes sense, but also figures in a prophetic metaphor, of the rod of Christ swallowing up the demonic powers on Calvary. The snakes are used to represent demonic powers also in their wilderness trials, where a snake on a rod represented the work of Calvary as well, removing the power and penalty of sin.
I undstand the symbols you present, makes sense, but I don't think it deminishes the possibility of God being behind the works of the magicians, allowing or enabling them to work or duplicate some of the miracles. As in my previous post, God even controls the power given to demons. Some times I think we tend to give Satan and his minions too much power or credit them as having what ablilities they have as their own. As deminstrated in Revelations 9 (Fifth trumpet) as well, when God granted them power to inflict harm upon the people, but not to kill them.
Well, brother, if it was an unpardonable sin to attribute the power of the Holy Spirit as the works of demons, don't you think we should be a bit cautious about doing the reverse, saying the works of demons are the power of the Holy Spirit? The Bible says there are two spiritual kingdoms, not one spiritual kingdom pretending to fight itself (as Calvinism would have it). Satan is described as having real destructive power we should be cautious of, not something that can't possibly harm us even if we don't apply the right spiritual principles; he is seeking whom he may destroy (those who will not "resist" him). Remember Christ said he came to loose the captives of Satan, he did not imply that God himself was behind that demonic power. When Christ said "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond," do you really think he was attributing that to God? As if God has the desires of Satan? Satan wants to do everything opposite to God, to harm his creation; I think it is treading on sacrilegious territory to start attributing evil powers as being God's doing, something Calvinists are also often very close to doing. God is not his own worst enemy... it is a contradiction of terms. The Bible clearly says God has an enemy (an enemy has done this, Mt. 13:28), it also clearly says a kingdom divided cannot stand (Mk 3:24); by this we can firmly conclude God is not playing some game becoming his own worst enemy, but has for some reason allowed his enemy to exist.

These two men were said to be the chief magicians:
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.
Does the bible specifically say where the power of the magicians came from? Does it say it was demonic? No, so to say it is demonic an assumption. Even Steve suggests the magicians could have done the "rod to snake" thing by some sort of trickery without demonic power behind it. Plus I don't see how turning the rod to snake is something evil, nor an eighteen year bloody menstrual. Did God caused a blind man to be blind so that God's power can be demonstrated in the blind man, was it evil to be blind? I have no problem with God causing the magicians' rods to turn into snakes to harden Pharaoh's heart and to demonstrate His power over sin. I'm not positively sure of this, I'm just throwing it out there to be examined. Sorry if the idea offends you, brother.
"Was the prodigal son, after his penitential return and forgiveness, less obliged to conform to the laws of his Father’s house than before he left it? No indeed, but more so." A.W. Pink

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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:13 pm

Greetings,

It appears to me that whenever the Biblical narative says anything, all we can do is make assumptions. Whether the power was from God, Satan or just slight of hand, it is an assumption. However, it seems a bigger assumption to think that God gave Jannes and Jambres the power to perform the trick. If God indeed gave them the power, why hold them in contempt as Paul does in writing to Timothy? (cf. 2 Timothy 3:8) It's a bit too Augustinian for my tastes.

Regards, Brenden.
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Re: Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:38 pm

Bookends wrote:Why couldn't God have just allowed these magicians' rods turn into snakes by God's power, to further harden (strengthen) Pharaoh's heart?

To suggest these magicians used trickery would also have to suggest that these magician new ahead of time of what tricks to prepare for. I suppose they could have known by divination, but still it is speculation at best.
Hey Brother,

I say it wasn't by YAHWEH's power. Therefore, either their sorceries or witchcraft were real powers or slight of hand tricks. Since Deut.18:10 & Lev.19:26 forbids these practices and Ex.7:11 denotes them as such persons - did they, in-fact, use tricks or supernatural powers in order to usurp the only true God authority?

Well, IMHO, the text suggest that these magicians used TRICKS not any supernatural powers! Let's read the text using YLT (Young's Literal Translation):

Exodus 7:11 And Pharaoh also calleth for wise men, and for sorcerers; and the scribes of Egypt, they also, with their flashings, do so,

The Hebrew word here, "flashings", is translated as follows:

לָהַט = lahat = flame

This word is used only one other time in the entire Old Testament, Genesis 3:24. Further more, the Gesenius's Lexicon state's the intent "to hide."

Therefore, "enchantment" is a terrible translation of the Hebrew word, "lahat".

Young, seems to be the most accurate in indicating what manner of "secret art" these magicians were using in order "to hide" their tricks, duplicating through forgery, the real power of YAHWEH.

Magicians use this mode of trickery even today. Using the flame or flashings to mask the slight of hand! This same technique was used in the "blood" trick as well.

I see no reason to believe these magicians had any real powers outside their bag of tricks using flashing techniques to mask their deception.

God Bless!

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