Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

[Jill]

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[RND]

The word "Ark" also can merely represent the object called an Ark, and it, the Ark, may just be a carrier of some important objects which are to remain in a particular known one place at one given time.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

There aren't too many things in scripture that don't represent the Messiah. The Ark was more than just a box with a few things in it. The manna (which literally means "what is it") was bread from Heaven.

John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he (Jesus) said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Aaron's rod that budded represents Christ and His character that takes that which is dead (the Rod) and brings new life into it (the budding). The rod that budded represents the "new man" changed by the word and the law.

The Ten Commandments are symbolic of the character and nature of Christ. The law of love. Matthew 22:37-40. Jesus came to “fulfill” or more properly “Fill Full” the law and the prophets. Matthew 5:17.

[tom]

Being this is my first forum I am finding it difficult to respond or answer since there are so many statements going at once. I will just lay out a response and then go from there. Hope it works!


I think you're looking at Mary in the wrong way. We cannot worship her nor anyone/thing other than God alone. Mary is the one that always draws us to Jesus. Remember she said in John 2:5, "do whatever He tells you!" She brings us closer to Jesus, her little boy.

I'm sure we've all had Christian mentors that brought us closer to Jesus. Do we not hold them with honor in our hearts? We, at least I, go to others in the Christian faith to explain, exhort and bring us closer to God.

How much more 'the mother of God' to bring us closer to her son!? She, of anyone, knows Jesus better then all the saints! "All generations shall call me blessed", Luke 1:48. Are we to do any less then Jesus by obeying the 4th commandment!?


Tom

[darinhouston]

Being this is my first forum I am finding it difficult to respond or answer since there are so many statements going at once. I will just lay out a response and then go from there. Hope it works!


I think you're looking at Mary in the wrong way. We cannot worship her nor anyone/thing other than God alone. Mary is the one that always draws us to Jesus. Remember she said in John 2:5, "do whatever He tells you!" She brings us closer to Jesus, her little boy.

I'm sure we've all had Christian mentors that brought us closer to Jesus. Do we not hold them with honor in our hearts? We, at least I, go to others in the Christian faith to explain, exhort and bring us closer to God.

How much more 'the mother of God' to bring us closer to her son!? She, of anyone, knows Jesus better then all the saints! "All generations shall call me blessed", Luke 1:48. Are we to do any less then Jesus by obeying the 4th commandment!?

Tom

Aside from the obvious concern over veneration becoming worship for many Catholics, I think the problem with that is that while we might agree that we would hold her with honor in our hearts (much the way I might hold my deceased grandmother with honor for raising my dad), the problem with "going to her" is that she is no longer alive. Yes, while alive she was able to bring people in her day to her son, but now she's gone and while I see no problem with honoring her memory, there's nothing more she can do for us today. Yes, I may go to other Christians today, but not the dead ones. They're gone and though we'll be reunited one day, they're not "available" to us.

Besides (and possibly more important), we have the perfect mediator in Christ Jesus. Why do we need another? Even saying "why not more" denies the perfection of His mediation in all ways and all things.

[RND]

Mary is the one that always draws us to Jesus.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Did Mary lead Abraham to demonstrate faith?
Did Jacob wrestle with Mary? Was Mary in the burning bush?
Did Mary lead David to repentance or was it the Holy Spirit?
Did Mary convert Saul?

[darinhouston]

Another point is often overlooked with regard to Mary. Tom, I have not had a Roman Catholic explain how they address this point and would appreciate your thoughts. I have created a new topic for this discussion, here:

Prayers to the Saints/Mary
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=2484

[tom]

darinhouston, before we change the subject and go off on praying to saints let's close on Mary as Ark of the Covenant. I haven't heard anyone comment on the Bible verses that I quoted. I think if we look at what the Holy Spirit, through the writers of scripture, is showing us there is something bigger going on here.

rnd, Yes all Scripture points us to the trinity of God! Why would you think that Mary would be any different? Where does Mary ever point us to her and away from Jesus? If I asked you to pray for me would I be taking away from the one mediatorship of Jesus? Of course not! Would it be wrong for me to ask you to pray for me? Of course not, the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Let's try to stay on Mary as the ark and not splinter off till we're done.


Thanks,

Tom

[RND]

rnd, Yes all Scripture points us to the trinity of God!

Godhead.

Why would you think that Mary would be any different?

Because Mary isn't part of the Godhead.

Where does Mary ever point us to her and away from Jesus?

Mary doesn't, men do. Tradition.

If I asked you to pray for me would I be taking away from the one mediatorship of Jesus? Of course not! Would it be wrong for me to ask you to pray for me? Of course not, the prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Justification for praying to dead people?

Let's try to stay on Mary as the ark and not splinter off till we're done.

Declarations made without substantiation of any kind are mere declarations. I bet you didn't know it but in a former life I was Napoleon Bonaparte. How do you suppose I might substantiate such a declaration?

The reason I can't stay on "Mary as the ark" is because Mary isn't the ark. Jesus is. In fact the scriptures say so.

Thanks,

You welcome!

[darinhouston]

darinhouston, before we change the subject and go off on praying to saints let's close on Mary as Ark of the Covenant. I haven't heard anyone comment on the Bible verses that I quoted.
...
Let's try to stay on Mary as the ark and not splinter off till we're done.

I put the discussion on Prayers to the Saints in a separate thread -- I don't propose we deal with that here -- we can do both in parallel or we can let that sit for now and come back to it. I am happy to continue this discussion here...

As for the scriptures you raised, I think RND stated it well -- all of them represent and point to Christ -- as for the Samuel passages and their parallels to Luke, I don't have much to say other than my resistance to draw doctrine from some convenient parallels without some express (even slight) suggestion from the apostles that they did so.

As for the Revelation passage, below...

In Revelation 11:19-12:1 we read, "Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars." We see the Ark which was not seen for some 400 years and then the image of Mary, the mother of the male child.

I see the woman as the church and not as Mary. Other than your presuppositions, what makes you think this is Mary? Just looking at your post, if we see both the Ark and the woman, then do you suggest that both of them are Mary? I just think you're trying to hard to fit Mary into these passages/visions.

[Jill]

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