Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

[tom]

RND,

Didn't Adam point us to the new Adam, Jesus? Didn't Abraham point us to the true shepherd, Jesus? Didn't David point us to the true Davidic King, Jesus? Why do you think any one of these or Mary would take away from Jesus?

To my comment, "Where does Mary ever point us to her and away from Jesus?", you wrote, "Mary doesn't, men do. Tradition." I thought we were talking scripture? Please, let's stay on track and focus on our subject of Mary.

You also wrote, "Justification for praying to dead people?". We can talk about this in the next thread 'Prayers to the Saints/Mary " after we're done with Mary as the ark. I'll get there but let's not shotgun all over the place. I am not Steve Gregg! I can't just remember scripture like he does. I don't have that gift.

To my comment, "Let's try to stay on Mary as the ark and not splinter off till we're done." You wrote, "Declarations made without substantiation of any kind are mere declarations. I bet you didn't know it but in a former life I was Napoleon Bonaparte. How do you suppose I might substantiate such a declaration?

The reason I can't stay on "Mary as the ark" is because Mary isn't the ark. Jesus is. In fact the scriptures say so."

As far as I know, you on a personal basis, are not talked about in scripture! Let alone Napoleon Bonaparte! Mary IS talked about so let's stay on her.


You say "Mary isn't the ark". Let's start with one scriptural topic at a time so I can focus on your answers.....Did Mary carry 'the Word made Flesh'?
Did Mary carry 'the Last and Greatest High Priest'?
Did Mary carry 'the Bread of Life'?

Tom

[darinhouston]

You say "Mary isn't the ark". Let's start with one scriptural topic at a time so I can focus on your answers.....Did Mary carry 'the Word made Flesh'?
Did Mary carry 'the Last and Greatest High Priest'?
Did Mary carry 'the Bread of Life'?

Tom

Forgive me, but so did the donkey. Does that mean it was the ark?

Didn't Adam point us to the new Adam, Jesus? Didn't Abraham point us to the true shepherd, Jesus? Didn't David point us to the true Davidic King, Jesus? Why do you think any one of these or Mary would take away from Jesus?

All those pointed to Jesus. The problem is your trying to say that something we believe did point to Jesus, in fact points to Mary. That is what takes away from Jesus. If all you were saying was that Mary pointed to Jesus, we would have no problem.

[tom]

karenprtlnd and darinhouston,


Let's talk about Revelation; Rev 11:19; 12:1-2
11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earth quake, and heavy hail.
12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
12:2 she was with child and she cried out in her birth pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
12:3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten thorns, and seven diadems upon his head.

Aren't we supposed to take the literal interpretation first and then the metaphorically? That's what I was always told, maybe you were taught differently?

Let's pull these verses apart. Who is the woman that gives birth to "a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron"? Mary! If she is Mary then why does John call her "woman"? Let's go on...

There are three main characters in Rev 12; the great dragon... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. A man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, (the new Adam) and the woman who give birth to the man child.

Gen 3 there are three main characters; the serpent. Adam and the woman.

In both Rev 12 and Gen 3 there is a conflict between the serpent and the woman. Both women are in pain of childbirth, (Gen 3:16, Rev 12:2).

Gen 3:15 states; "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." Again, who is the woman that bears Seed (Jesus)? Who bruises the head of the serpent? (Rev 12:11, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.")

Gen 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living." Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Christians are really 'the living'!

Irenaeus said, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve had bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."

Gen account is the beginning of man's story of salvation. Rev is the end of man's story of salvation.


Tom

[darinhouston]

karenprtlnd and darinhouston,


Let's talk about Revelation; Rev 11:19; 12:1-2
11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earth quake, and heavy hail.
12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
12:2 she was with child and she cried out in her birth pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
12:3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten thorns, and seven diadems upon his head.

Aren't we supposed to take the literal interpretation first and then the metaphorically? That's what I was always told, maybe you were taught differently?

That's what I was "taught," but I have learned since that you should approach Scripture just like you do any work -- look at the book or letter in question, determine its historic context and literary style, and interpret it accordingly -- poetic language should err or non-literal; historic, literal; apocalyptic, symbolic; and combinations of the above.

The Revelation is largely apocalyptic and symbolic; therefore, most of it is not to be taken literally.

I don't have time presently to address the specifics as I am preparing to leave town to see family -- I'll leave that to others or come back in a few days. I do have one question for you in the meantime -- who do you think the woman is in Revelation 17 ? On what basis do you decide which references to "woman" actually refer to Mary?

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. 7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. 9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. 12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 “These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
15 And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 “And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 “The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

[RND]

Didn't Adam point us to the new Adam, Jesus? Didn't Abraham point us to the true shepherd, Jesus? Didn't David point us to the true Davidic King, Jesus? Why do you think any one of these or Mary would take away from Jesus?

I didn't suggest anyone "took" anything away from Jesus I plainly stated that the Bible speaks of Jesus, not Mary. As for "pointing to" Jesus I believe the figures you used are "types of Christ" in metaphor.

To my comment, "Where does Mary ever point us to her and away from Jesus?", you wrote, "Mary doesn't, men do. Tradition." I thought we were talking scripture? Please, let's stay on track and focus on our subject of Mary.

My quote stands Tom. Men by way of tradition use Mary to point to Mary and nor Jesus. Tradition has made Mary an equal with Jesus.

You also wrote, "Justification for praying to dead people?". We can talk about this in the next thread 'Prayers to the Saints/Mary " after we're done with Mary as the ark. I'll get there but let's not shotgun all over the place. I am not Steve Gregg! I can't just remember scripture like he does. I don't have that gift.

Roger.

To my comment, "Let's try to stay on Mary as the ark and not splinter off till we're done." You wrote, "Declarations made without substantiation of any kind are mere declarations. I bet you didn't know it but in a former life I was Napoleon Bonaparte. How do you suppose I might substantiate such a declaration?

The reason I can't stay on "Mary as the ark" is because Mary isn't the ark. Jesus is. In fact the scriptures say so."

As far as I know, you on a personal basis, are not talked about in scripture! Let alone Napoleon Bonaparte! Mary IS talked about so let's stay on her.

Mary is certainly mentioned in the Bible. However there are many people in the Bible that more is spoken of than Mary. Samuel, Abraham, Moshe, Ruth and even Ester are mentioned more and reveal more. That's not to say that Mary isn't important she most certainly is. But Mary deferred any attention she may have gotten to Jesus.

You say "Mary isn't the ark". Let's start with one scriptural topic at a time so I can focus on your answers.....Did Mary carry 'the Word made Flesh'?

She did indeed. Was the word with God before Mary was?

Did Mary carry 'the Last and Greatest High Priest'?

She did indeed. Was this High Priest made manifest before Mary was?

Did Mary carry 'the Bread of Life'?

She did indeed. Was the bread of life made manifest before Mary was?

[RND]

karenprtlnd and darinhouston,


Let's talk about Revelation; Rev 11:19; 12:1-2
11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, loud noises, peals of thunder, an earth quake, and heavy hail.
12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
12:2 she was with child and she cried out in her birth pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
12:3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten thorns, and seven diadems upon his head.

Aren't we supposed to take the literal interpretation first and then the metaphorically? That's what I was always told, maybe you were taught differently?

There's nothing to be taken "literal" in the book of Revelation - it's a book jam-packed with metaphors. If we looked at it as "literal" we would have to believe in 7 headed sea monsters.

Let's pull these verses apart. Who is the woman that gives birth to "a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron"? Mary! If she is Mary then why does John call her "woman"? Let's go on...

The church. More properly "Israel" gave birth to the man-child.

There are three main characters in Rev 12; the great dragon... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. A man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, (the new Adam) and the woman who give birth to the man child.

Gen 3 there are three main characters; the serpent. Adam and the woman.

In both Rev 12 and Gen 3 there is a conflict between the serpent and the woman. Both women are in pain of childbirth, (Gen 3:16, Rev 12:2).

Gen 3:15 states; "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." Again, who is the woman that bears Seed (Jesus)? Who bruises the head of the serpent? (Rev 12:11, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.")

Gen 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living." Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Christians are really 'the living'!

Irenaeus said, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve had bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."

Gen account is the beginning of man's story of salvation. Rev is the end of man's story of salvation.

Tom, Mary wasn't clothed with the sun metaphorically. The sun and the moon represent "light" both direct and reflected light. Israel, the church, was given the light, which is the word of God both in spirit and in flesh. There are -zero- accounts of Mary being attacked by Satan in the Bible. She was constantly under the care of angels and protected by them.

The "woman" in Revelation 12 is the church that was persecuted by the Satan for bringing the light of the Messiah to a dying world. Satan has attempted, ever since Jesus was crucified, to destroy the truth that Christians carry on their lips to an desperate world.

Isaiah 6.2 "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman."

Psalm 9.10,11 "And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee:
Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion."

Heb.12.22 "You are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem."

REVELATION'S BEASTS- Revelation 12 THE DRAGON AND THE WOMAN

"Revelation 12 begins it's focus at the point in history when CHRIST enters the world as a human being. He is pictured in the helpless condition of a BABY, at the mercy of the people He has come to redeem. The dragon, in full array, is set to destroy HIM. Through all the ages past the dragon had sought to destroy the "woman" (God's people) by perverting the true doctrines, thus weaning her away from her true "husband" and unto himself. Then, seeing God could no longer sustain her (God's people) in her wickedness, the dragon roused the kingdoms of the world to come against her and destroy her. Yet there was always the faithful remnant, true to God, and the dragon did not succeed in destroying the woman before Christ was born.

Now, in the first part of Revelation 12, he focuses all his forces upon Christ, HIMSELF. He works through the earthly kingdom in control, as Herod, sought to destroy Christ at birth. He worked through the Israelites, as people sought to throw Him over cliffs, (Luke 4:29)or stone Him (John 10:31). The devil assaulted HIM with temptations. Finally, working through both Rome and Israel, a brutal wound was inflicted upon our Savior as HE hung upon the cross. But the very wound Satan inflicted upon Christ, was the death blow to himself. The dragon wounded Christ's heel, but Christ inflicted a defeating blow upon the dragon's head. For here in Rev. 12 we see that it was AT THE CROSS that Satan was totally cast out of heaven, where he had accused the brethren before God day and night--but now he is cast down, BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB and by the word of their testimony.

Now salvation, and strength and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night has been cast down, and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony...Rejoice O heavens and you who dwell in them! Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth and the sea fro the devil has come down to you having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

[kaufmannphillips]

Or, the ark represents a divinely-ordered watercraft that saved eight people and a bunch of animals, and some Christians have a creative imagination.


Let us take the type to its rational extension: G-d says "I am bringing the destruction of evil, so set about building the means of your survival and that of others."

[tom]

I would like to answer all of the side questions regarding Rev 17 and prayers to saints and others talked about in the Bible but I would like to stay on the subject of Mary. It's so easy to get side tracked, sometimes it's necessary but not yet.

RND,

You wrote; "Mary is certainly mentioned in the Bible. However there are many people in the Bible that more is spoken of than Mary. Samuel, Abraham, Moshe, Ruth and even Ester are mentioned more and reveal more. That's not to say that Mary isn't important she most certainly is. But Mary deferred any attention she may have gotten to Jesus.

You say "Mary isn't the ark". Let's start with one scriptural topic at a time so I can focus on your answers.....Did Mary carry 'the Word made Flesh'?

She did indeed. Was the word with God before Mary was?
Did Mary carry 'the Last and Greatest High Priest'?

She did indeed. Was this High Priest made manifest before Mary was?
Did Mary carry 'the Bread of Life'?

She did indeed. Was the bread of life made manifest before Mary was?"

I think you're missing something in you're statements "She did indeed....." Jesus in the flesh is the fulfillment of the Old Testament God Man. Jesus being God always was. He is eternal! Jesus in the flesh was not until Mary said, I DO! All of our salvation was waiting for a little girl to say yes!

As far as using the word "literal" for interpretation of Rev 11-12 I stand corrected. You are right! I shouldn't have used that word. I should have used the word "logical".

Using the word logical is not a blind leap of faith. It's the conclusion of what one would reach looking at the evidence. We have to use logic to interpret Rev 11-12. How can we look at the Man-child as Jesus (a person/God). That Old Serpent, the Devil (a person/angle/character). The woman who gives birth to the Man Child (a thing, the church)? Your interpretation makes no logical sense! We are talking about persons and then you say the woman is a thing!?

I'll agree the secondary interpretation that the woman is the Church can fit but we are to take the most logical first. Who gives birth to the Man Child that rules with an iron rod? None other than Mary!

'Mary is the morning star preceding the Light of the World, Jesus. The only difference is that all her light is derived from her Son. 'By God's eternal decree Mary has been associated with the highest mysteries of the Christian religion, being the very instrument of the Incarnation of the Eternal Son of God, and, therefore, of our redemption. When we honor Mary we are but honoring Christ in her. Without Him, she would be nothing, and she would be the first to admit it. The honor we show her cannot displease Christ.'

'Eve listened to Satan, disobeyed God, gave us to eat of the tree of evil, left us miserable and driven from the paradise of the grace of God.
Mary listed to an Angel, obeyed, gave us to eat of the tree of life, restored happiness to us and us to God's grace, and she is enthroned in heaven with Christ.'

Mary is all over scripture from beginning to end! She did certainly receive graces that no other woman ever received or ever will!

Tom

[RND]

Tom, using the "Quote" feature is very useful.

I think you're missing something in you're statements "She did indeed....." Jesus in the flesh is the fulfillment of the Old Testament God Man. Jesus being God always was. He is eternal! Jesus in the flesh was not until Mary said, I DO! All of our salvation was waiting for a little girl to say yes!

How then do you explain Abraham's salvation? Or David's?

As far as using the word "literal" for interpretation of Rev 11-12 I stand corrected. You are right! I shouldn't have used that word. I should have used the word "logical".

No biggie.

Using the word logical is not a blind leap of faith. It's the conclusion of what one would reach looking at the evidence. We have to use logic to interpret Rev 11-12. How can we look at the Man-child as Jesus (a person/God). That Old Serpent, the Devil (a person/angle/character). The woman who gives birth to the Man Child (a thing, the church)? Your interpretation makes no logical sense! We are talking about persons and then you say the woman is a thing!?

All are metaphorical references. The "symbol" relates to the physical.

I'll agree the secondary interpretation that the woman is the Church can fit but we are to take the most logical first. Who gives birth to the Man Child that rules with an iron rod? None other than Mary!

The church.

'Mary is the morning star preceding the Light of the World, Jesus. The only difference is that all her light is derived from her Son. 'By God's eternal decree Mary has been associated with the highest mysteries of the Christian religion, being the very instrument of the Incarnation of the Eternal Son of God, and, therefore, of our redemption. When we honor Mary we are but honoring Christ in her. Without Him, she would be nothing, and she would be the first to admit it. The honor we show her cannot displease Christ.'

Not at all, Mary is indeed quite honorable. However, she's dead and buried and awaiting her change.

'Eve listened to Satan, disobeyed God, gave us to eat of the tree of evil, left us miserable and driven from the paradise of the grace of God.
Mary listed to an Angel, obeyed, gave us to eat of the tree of life, restored happiness to us and us to God's grace, and she is enthroned in heaven with Christ.'

Unfortunately there is nothing in the Bible that would satisfy this fanciful position.

Mary is all over scripture from beginning to end!

Really? Where?

She did certainly receive graces that no other woman ever received or ever will!

[/quote]

Mary received the same Grace that any other believing woman will.

[popeman]

Hello forum and hello Tom,

I think I am probably the only other Catholic Christian who may write in support of you, Tom. Did you read the one reply where the author compares the amount of scriptural verbiage of Mary as minimal compared to other women/people in scripture … “Mary is certainly mentioned in the Bible. However there are many people in the Bible that more is spoken of than Mary. Samuel, Abraham, Moshe, Ruth and even Ester are mentioned more and reveal more”? That is an interesting way to compare something. The mere weight of something outweighs another, but they forget we are talking about “Godly” things where a feather in reference to God will far outweigh a vault of solid gold.

I will not allow your subject to be side-tracked so my comment will be only to point something out. The above example of Mary’s minimalism in scriptural references compared to volumes related to other women reminds me when I was talking to a Protestant Evangelical Christian about Peter. My point was that Peter’s scriptural relevance was stronger because he is mentioned many-fold compared to the closest apostle references, but in that instance the scriptural weight was brushed aside as “nonsense”. So I guess both Catholic and Evangelical Christians here use the weight of “content” when they feel it benefits them. That aside, Tom still bears a very important point here.

Scripture is full of “fore-shadowing” from the OT to the NT. The relationship of NT Mary the OT Ark of the Covenant that Tom has brought up is excellent. So excellent that many early Christian authors bring this point up and it appears that even the early Christian Church hung their hat on it and continues to be worn by the Catholic Christian Church today. Without arguing back and forth about the relationship that Tom brings up, maybe one of the Protestant readers can reference their earliest Christian author who disagreed with this point…that Mary was in fact “not” the Ark who carried Jesus who was the Bread, Priesthood and the Law. As the OT Ark being wood and gold was untouchable that there is no way a human being such as the NT Mary could outdo wood and gold and be untouchable and pure….even if she did carry Jesus…the son of God. No that would be sheer nonsense. The OT foreshadowing always out-performs the NT fore-shadowing, right? Or, is it the other way around?

If there is so much disagreement about this point today, then surely those wise Holy men of the earliest times would have been as out-spoken, if not more. Please provide some names and writings so we can all read about them. Pax Christos. PopeMan