Converting to the RCC

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Thu May 28, 2009 7:36 am

darinhouston wrote:But, certainly it must at least cause you to think twice about whether God would have appointed these men to succeed His apostles and to establish and sustain His one true church and to establish and determine doctrine until now.

Perhaps , but I consider God to be active in history. I would compare it to the Babylonian Captivity. When Judea got off track God used the pagans to punish them. But they were still God's people.
In the same way God used the reformation. Read about the sack of Rome by the Lutheran Imperial Army in 1527. It took this to get the Popes to start their own reform. It was their involement in political and temporal power and the enjoyment of it , not the doctrine itself , that got them into this state of depravity. Something that is no longer possible.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Thu May 28, 2009 8:58 am

Hola Thomas,

Pronounced ola toe-moss, si?

You compare the awful state of the RCC during the middle ages to the Babylonian exile. You must see the RCC as equivalent to the state of Israel/Judah of the Old Testament? So the institution of Rome, and not the whole of followers of Christ is the Church? Are your Lutheran family members part of the body of Christ, and are those of us who are not RCC? It seems that in your estimation the church is an institution rather than a people.

Perhaps you are joining the RCC because of the liturgy, etc. and not because you see it as the one true church? If there was a thriving Eastern Orthodox church in your location could you join that just as well?

God bless, Homer

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 28, 2009 9:50 am

Surely he wasn't equating the Protestants during the Reformation with the Babylonians...

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Thu May 28, 2009 9:51 am

Homer wrote:Hola Thomas,

Pronounced ola toe-moss, si?
si
You compare the awful state of the RCC during the middle ages to the Babylonian exile. You must see the RCC as equivalent to the state of Israel/Judah of the Old Testament?
Christianity is the succesor to Judaism , Judaism with the Messiah. So yes
So the institution of Rome, and not the whole of followers of Christ is the Church?Are your Lutheran family members part of the body of Christ, and are those of us who are not RCC?
yes
It seems that in your estimation the church is an institution rather than a people.
I don't subscribe to the opinion that the church is solely invisible. It is both visible , institution , and invisible , the believers. Nor would I say that the RCC is the only visible church.

Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.


Perhaps you are joining the RCC because of the liturgy, etc. and not because you see it as the one true church? If there was a thriving Eastern Orthodox church in your location could you join that just as well?

God bless, Homer

One true church? no Didn't think the Lutherans would qualify either.
There is a Greek Orthodox , not particularly near , and serves too much as a club for the Greek immigrants. My wife and daughter are RCC , and after 21 years , and an inability to be Lutheran , which I prefer , it's an acceptable change.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Thu May 28, 2009 9:52 am

darinhouston wrote:Surely he wasn't equating the Protestants during the Reformation with the Babylonians...
Their use as an instrement of God's wrath , yep.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 28, 2009 10:56 am

thomas wrote:
darinhouston wrote:Surely he wasn't equating the Protestants during the Reformation with the Babylonians...
Their use as an instrement of God's wrath , yep.
I can buy that as long as you don't also imply that they were just as "wrong" as the Babylonians in their own methods and reasons for having brought that wrath.

On this point (the correctness of what they were doing), the only thing the Reformers were doing was bringing light on the false doctrines, was it not? Do you believe the Protestants were correct in their doctrinal points, or incorrect? If you believe they were correct (as a good Lutheran, I presume), and they clearly haven't changed their views as to the Reformation doctrines then how can you join (professionally) to a church that teaches such fundamentally wrong doctrines? If you acknowledge they were wrong then, how could an infallible council have pronounced anathema on them and proclaim their doctrines to be heresies and remain infallible?

Unless you agree now with their doctrinal positions on such things as justification, etc. and walk away from the Lutheran catechism/confessions you once made (I assume), it strikes me a Lutheran joining the RCC would be either unequally yoked, or would be taking a false profession? If they permitted you to fellowship with them without such confessions, I would have no problem doing so -- wherever you find the body of Christ is what I say... But, I just don't see how I could make the requisite confessions to be considered a member of the RCC.

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Thu May 28, 2009 11:38 am

darinhouston wrote:
thomas wrote:
darinhouston wrote:Surely he wasn't equating the Protestants during the Reformation with the Babylonians...
Their use as an instrement of God's wrath , yep.
I can buy that as long as you don't also imply that they were just as "wrong" as the Babylonians in their own methods and reasons for having brought that wrath.


Not sure I understand that.
On this point (the correctness of what they were doing), the only thing the Reformers were doing was bringing light on the false doctrines, was it not? Do you believe the Protestants were correct in their doctrinal points, or incorrect? If you believe they were correct (as a good Lutheran, I presume), and they clearly haven't changed their views as to the Reformation doctrines then how can you join (professionally) to a church that teaches such fundamentally wrong doctrines? If you acknowledge they were wrong then, how could an infallible council have pronounced anathema on them and proclaim their doctrines to be heresies and remain infallible?

Unless you agree now with their doctrinal positions on such things as justification, etc. and walk away from the Lutheran catechism/confessions you once made (I assume), it strikes me a Lutheran joining the RCC would be either unequally yoked, or would be taking a false profession? If they permitted you to fellowship with them without such confessions, I would have no problem doing so -- wherever you find the body of Christ is what I say... But, I just don't see how I could make the requisite confessions to be considered a member of the RCC.

I have been a Lutheran for 44 years , quit happy with it. But what I have been through here has caused me to rethink some things. This concerns the use or misuse of:

Sola Scriptura , I have found that the use of history and tradition , though not superior to the Bible, are necesary for the church to speak in a consistant and unconfusing voice. I am tired of having the church constantly reinventing itself everytime a new official comes along with a cute idea.

Sola Fide , or rather its misuse. When this is used without repentance or sanctification , cheap grace , it alows fow corruption and even criminality in the in both the officials and members of the church.

So to that extent I've come to see the RCC position to be superior. And also that the solas came out of the reformation and were not restoration of lost or corrupted doctrine. So it is an honest conversion and not one of convenience. And I no longer believe the RCC doctrines are fundamentaly wrong.

Thomas

It also strikes me as odd that while the protestants say they have restored the true doctrines , that they can never agree on what thiose doctrines actually are. There ended up being 5 or 6 distinctive doctrines from the begining , and it´s gotten worse since.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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steve
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by steve » Thu May 28, 2009 8:59 pm

Hi Thomas,

The fact that your wife is a lifetime Catholic helps to explain a part of your reason for converting—and I am not critical of it. I can go to church anywhere, so, if I was married to a woman who strongly desired to go to a particular church—even if it was one I did not agree with or particularly enjoy attending—I would attend with her, simply to have the family worshiping together. Blessings!

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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Thu May 28, 2009 10:44 pm

Dear Tom,

It is interesting hearing about your spiritual journey. You might want to get the book “To Everyone an Answer, A case for the Christian Worldview – Essays in honor of Norman L. Geisler” by Francis Beckwith. It may help in some of your questions about Christianity related to non-denominational Protestant and Catholic Christianity. He actually left the Catholic faith to become an Evangelical Christian” .

I am kind of disappointed with some of the forum responses relating you to almost being a weak-kneed husband that will simply follow his wife without looking into scripture and history himself. With that type of argument you may want to challenge them with the same reasoning why they became Protestants, but really, don't. You have a great style of response...I love your simple...yes, no.

Check out that author. I think he will be very helpful to find that "bridge" of understanding some of the non-denominational discussions. Norman Geisler is/was a huge non-denominational christian writer that Beckwith discusses with some great interest. Enjoy. God and Country

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Fri May 29, 2009 8:16 am

A little about my wife.

She is not a partiularly devout Catholic. She goes to mass every once in a while. Her attitude is " I'm a Panamanian and it wouldn't be right if I wasn't Catholic." Neither one of us has tried to convert the other. At the same time I've gone to mass with her a few times over the years , maybe once every 3 years , and she has gone to the Lutheran service a couple of times. No tension there , we've quite happily worshiped seperately.

At the same time , I've gotten aculturated to the RCC. It's hard to see anything strange or un-christian about them , after living and working with them for so long.There are about 5000 practicing Catholics for every Lutheran here , they are rather hard to avoid. To that extent , she played a part in my decision.

I decided to see the preist without consulting her. When I told her , her first reaction was " Oh no , now you'll be draggig me off to mass with you!" As it is she is a night person and I am a morning person. She goes to mass at 6:30PM on Sat. in one parish and I go to the 8:00 AM Sunday in anouther. I have however drug her out of bed occasionaly for the 10:00AM , but it ain't easy.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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