The Narrow Path Ministries

steve wrote: The Word of Faith theology always has had troubles with the Book of Job, because their view is almost precisely that of Job's friends, which the book is written to refute. The book is a true story, as Ezekiel and James tell us, but even if it were a parable, its lesson is clearly that Satan was completely unable to penetrate the hedge that God had kept around Job, until God gave him permission to do so. Job attributed his trials to God. Word of Faith teachers say Job was wrong, but the book itself plainly says that Job spoke correctly about God (1:21-22; 2:10; 42:7)—and the narrative in the first two chapters vindicates his opinion. The Word of Faith teachers would be better off if they would just tear the book out of the Bible (along with Ezekiel and James), rather than contradicting its statements outright.

...but what about Job 3:25? I've heard from Word of Faith people that Job's fear and dread gave satan an "open door" to enter his life and hurt him. I see their point (because it is a sin to fear and dread over things) but can't agree with them because that was the point of view of Job's friends. Can someone help me understand?

Thanks
Selah*

I'm going to have to go along with God's testimony on this, not Job's. I do not think there is any sin implied in Job's words about the things he feared. If there was, that is, if Job was sinning in fearing the loss of his famiy (I don't mind saying that I fear the loss of my family, but I do not feel convicted of sin about it), then God must not have noticed, since he said that Satan moved Him to afflict Job "without a cause" (that is, without a cause in Job—God always has a purpose for His actions). It would be strange indeed for God twice to declare that Job was a blameless man, when, in fact, God saw a sin in JOb that was so great that it deserved such great "punishments."

The Word of Faith people always say that Job suffered because he feared (i.e., he lacked faith). God apparently was not aware of this. If that were true, then the Book of Job would certainly be an occasion for everyone who fears anything to live in continual dread that the thing they fear will necessarily happen to them ("according to your faith be it unto you"). Thankfully, this is not the case. I have feared many things that never materialized, and most of the things that have brought affliction in my life were totally unexpected (that is, not feared in advance).

Hi Steve7150,

Consider Isaiah 10, especially the underlined parts, where God, in His anger at Israel, uses Assyria to inflict severe punishment on His people, then turns His wrath on Assyria for their sin in doing so. Their intent against Israel was evil, God used their evil purpose to carry out His will in the matter:

Isaiah 10 (New International Version)






Hi Homer,

I agree that God can have righteous anger against evil and use righteous violence to destroy evil but was Job evil?

steve7150 wrote:Hi Steve7150,

Consider Isaiah 10, especially the underlined parts, where God, in His anger at Israel, uses Assyria to inflict severe punishment on His people, then turns His wrath on Assyria for their sin in doing so. Their intent against Israel was evil, God used their evil purpose to carry out His will in the matter:

Isaiah 10 (New International Version)






Hi Homer,

I agree that God can have righteous anger against evil and use righteous violence to destroy evil but was Job evil?

Of course he is; everyone is. Was God punishing Job? I think you took Homer's meaning too narrowly. I think Homer is pointing out that God uses all kinds of things, even what seems evil - even Satan's schemes, to work His will. Satan was allowed to destroy everything, except Job's life, to test Job's faith. You seem to think that God wouldn't allow this because it seems contrary to what Christ reveals. Christ revealed that his faithful followers would suffer persecution and even death and are blessed when they do so for His sake. Isn't persecution evil?

steve wrote:I'm going to have to go along with God's testimony on this, not Job's. I do not think there is any sin implied in Job's words about the things he feared. If there was, that is, if Job was sinning in fearing the loss of his famiy (I don't mind saying that I fear the loss of my family, but I do not feel convicted of sin about it), then God must not have noticed, since he said that Satan moved Him to afflict Job "without a cause" (that is, without a cause in Job—God always has a purpose for His actions). It would be strange indeed for God twice to declare that Job was a blameless man, when, in fact, God saw a sin in JOb that was so great that it deserved such great "punishments."

This is a very good point, and for us to see it any other way would be like us listening to a loving father and a his young child explain the truth about a matter, in which the child explains it one way and the father explains it another way, and then insisting upon taking the child's perspective instead of the father's.

steve wrote:The Word of Faith people always say that Job suffered because he feared (i.e., he lacked faith). God apparently was not aware of this. If that were true, then the Book of Job would certainly be an occasion for everyone who fears anything to live in continual dread that the thing they fear will necessarily happen to them ("according to your faith be it unto you"). Thankfully, this is not the case. I have feared many things that never materialized, and most of the things that have brought affliction in my life were totally unexpected (that is, not feared in advance).

Yes, this is what they say...and it has always stumbled me, because I thought it was a sin to fear. Perhaps my conscience works overtime.

I've got to spend some time thinking and praying about your perspective because I sure have thought it was a sin to fear and dread.

...but you're certainly right that holding the Word of Faith belief implicates Job as having caused his affliction because he "lacked faith." This belief, I might add, is very painful. It is like pouring salt onto a wound. I mean the person already has to deal with the issue causing their suffering, but on top of that, they (if they buy into the WF doctrine, they have to accept the blame for their suffering too). This must be extremely hard when the suffering involves a loved-one who also suffers.

Thanks so much,
Selah*:) p.s. Of course I don't think you are promoting Christians going through life nursing our fears and dread. Of course, we want to "fear not, for the Lord our God" is with us.

Yes, this is what they say...and it has always stumbled me, because I thought it was a sin to fear. Perhaps my conscience works overtime.

I've got to spend some time thinking and praying about your perspective because I sure have thought it was a sin to fear and dread.








The NT does say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Sorry i don't remember offhand where this is located.

Of course he is; everyone is. Was God punishing Job? I think you took Homer's meaning too narrowly. I think Homer is pointing out that God uses all kinds of things, even what seems evil - even Satan's schemes, to work His will. Satan was allowed to destroy everything, except Job's life, to test Job's faith. You seem to think that God wouldn't allow this because it seems contrary to what Christ reveals. Christ revealed that his faithful followers would suffer persecution and even death and are blessed when they do so for His sake. Isn't persecution evil?
Michelle






Yes i understand God works out all things for good to those that love him. My point was about whether God actually incited Satan or whether Satan had the power to persecute Job on his own.

steve7150 wrote:Yes, this is what they say...and it has always stumbled me, because I thought it was a sin to fear. Perhaps my conscience works overtime.

I've got to spend some time thinking and praying about your perspective because I sure have thought it was a sin to fear and dread.








The NT does say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Sorry i don't remember offhand where this is located.

Romans 14:23, but the context isn't about fear, it's about thinking something is a sin and doing it anyway.

Michelle wrote:

steve7150 wrote:selah wrote: [/color] Yes, this is what they say...and it has always stumbled me, because I thought it was a sin to fear. Perhaps my conscience works overtime.

I've got to spend some time thinking and praying about your perspective because I sure have thought it was a sin to fear and dread. [/color]






The NT does say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Sorry i don't remember offhand where this is located.

Romans 14:23, but the context isn't about fear, it's about thinking something is a sin and doing it anyway.

Romans 14:23....okay....and surrounding text. This gets to be my scripture to meditate on today. Thanks, Michelle!

Yes i understand God works out all things for good to those that love him. My point was about whether God actually incited Satan or whether Satan had the power to persecute Job on his own.

When you use the word 'incited,' do you include the idea of 'gave permission'?