The Way of Peace and Grace

Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon
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Paidion
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The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Paidion » Sat May 23, 2015 6:40 pm

The apostle Paul once tried to carry out God's commands and kill God's enemies. He had many Christians put to death. However, after his encounter with Jesus the Messiah, he made an about face. Because of his former actions against the Christians, he considered himself "the chief of sinners." (1 Tim 1:15). After that, He quoted the Hebrew scriptures for a non-violent and redemptive purpose—omitting the portions of the quotes in which God urges violence and slaughter against His enemies.

I have offered one explanation in this forum, and have been raked over the coals for it. Derek Flood's explanation is different. In the following article, he shows how Paul interprets various passages from the Psalms and elsewhere in a redemptive way, leaving out the violent portions.

Even Romans 12:19 where Paul quotes, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay" Paul uses it to instruct his readers NOT to seek vengeance, whereas the statement from Deuteronomy 32 indicates that the LORD will repay through the violence He brings about through His people. As Derek Flood put it:
In Romans 12:19-21, Paul again quotes Deuteronomy 32, citing the Lord’s declaration “it is mine to avenge” to argue that we should not seek vengeance, but rather work to “overcome evil with good.” In its original context, however, this passage was a celebration of vengeance: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders.” This passage, which originally advocated vengeance and violence, is now used to promote enemy love.
If you would like to read Flood's article entitled "The Way of Peace and Grace," click the link below:

http://sojo.net/magazine/2012/01/way-peace-and-grace
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by steve7150 » Sun May 24, 2015 7:54 am

I have offered one explanation in this forum, and have been raked over the coals for it. Derek Flood's explanation is different. In the following article, he shows how Paul interprets various passages from the Psalms and elsewhere in a redemptive way, leaving out the violent portions.







Paidion,
It sounds to me that Flood is saying Paul recognized the New Covenant of grace and peace which everyone here would agree with. But i don't see that Paul was saying the violent verses in the OT were wrong but rather they are not part of the New Covenant.

Singalphile
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Singalphile » Sun May 24, 2015 1:47 pm

He makes two arguments:

1. Paul omitted or removed references to God's violence in the OT.
2. Paul redefined or reshaped certain OT passages to mean something contrary to what those passages originally meant.

I don't think that either argument holds up very well, and here's why:

1. Nothing can be determined by the fact that Paul didn't quote a verse or that he didn't quote entire Psalms/passages. Flood mentions two of the four back-to-back OT quotations in Romans 15:9-12. Left unmentioned is verse 11, in which Paul quotes Psalm 117:1, "Praise the Lord all you Gentiles, And let all the peoples praise Him." But Paul didn't go on into verse 2 - "For His lovingkindness is great toward us, And the truth of the Lord is everlasting. Praise the Lord!" Does that mean that Paul omitted verse 2 and therefore Paul didn't accept it?
So the inconsistent use and results of that interpretative method indicates that it's not a useful one, I think. The OT verses before and after Paul's quotations simply aren't particularly relevant to his points. In each case, I found that Paul's quotation supports his points legitimately. (The fact that Paul quoted from these passages at all suggests that he found them authoritative and instructional.)

2. Flood references three short sections of Romans: Romans 15:9-12, Romans 12:19-21, and Romans 3:10-19.
In Romans 15:9-12, Paul's point is that both Jew and Gentile would glorify God. His quotations support that point. I see no reshaping there.
In Romans 12, Paul tells his readers not to seek their own vengeance, but to instead leave room for God's wrath. Again, Paul's quotation from Deut 32 ("Vengeance is mine, and retribution.") supports that perfectly well.
Lastly, in Romans 3:10-19, Paul's main point, I think, is that Jews are not automatically and necessarily better than Gentiles, and he quotes several OT passages which identify evil among Gentiles and Jews ("to those who are under the Law") to support that point. His point is not at all contrary, much less opposite, to what the OT passages are saying. They are complementary.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Paidion » Sun May 24, 2015 2:58 pm

The OT verses before and after Paul's quotations simply aren't particularly relevant to his points.
That is precisely the case that Derek Flood makes. Paul's "points" are the way of peace and grace as Jesus Himself taught: that we are not to seek vengeance and to love our enemies and do good to them. Paul reflects the same practices, as he himself learned directly from the Saviour, and indirectly from His teachings which the gospel writers recorded. Thus Paul omits the passages which suggest that God commands violent wars and destruction of enemies, but the Christian, now non-violent Paul, doesn't quote the OT passages which are contrary to the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Paidion » Sun May 24, 2015 3:05 pm

Flood references three short sections of Romans: Romans 15:9-12, Romans 12:19-21, and Romans 3:10-19.
In this short article, yes. It is but a taste of the book that Flood wrote: "Disarming Scripture" (which you can read free, in part here):

http://www.amazon.com/Disarming-Scriptu ... 0692307265
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Singalphile
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Singalphile » Sun May 24, 2015 3:31 pm

Paidion wrote:
Singalphile wrote:The OT verses before and after Paul's quotations simply aren't particularly relevant to his points.
That is precisely the case that Derek Flood makes. Paul's "points" are the way of peace and grace as Jesus Himself taught: that we are not to seek vengeance and to love our enemies and do good to them. Paul reflects the same practices, as he himself learned directly from the Saviour, and indirectly from His teachings which the gospel writers recorded.
I don't think that's the case he's making. Everyone agrees with all of that, after all. If I were to try to summarize Flood's argument, I would say that it is that we should determine which portions of the OT are legitimate or God-inspired and useful for instruction (etc.) based on the teachings of Christ (and/or the NT) and the Spirit of Christ in us.
Paidion wrote:Thus Paul omits the passages which suggest that God commands violent wars and destruction of enemies, but the Christian, now non-violent Paul, doesn't quote the OT passages which are contrary to the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
This is one of his two arguments, and I explained why I don't personally find it compelling. In short: the fact that Paul doesn't quote a verse that is neither particularly relevant nor contrary to his immediate point doesn't tell me anything.

I genuinely appreciate Flood's (and your) attempt to defend God's honor, as you see it. However, I think it can be shown that the whole of the OT and NT are complementary and taken all together reveal God as loving, righteousness, and just, which is not incompatible with His wrath and vengeance.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

steve7150
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by steve7150 » Sun May 24, 2015 6:35 pm

This is one of his two arguments, and I explained why I don't personally find it compelling. In short: the fact that Paul doesn't quote a verse that is neither particularly relevant nor contrary to his immediate point doesn't tell me anything.











Yes i agree as it appears Paul is revealing the New Covenant but to conclude he also is repudiating the Old Covenant as being inaccurate is reading something into his comments that are not there.

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Paidion
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Re: The Way of Peace and Grace

Post by Paidion » Sun May 24, 2015 10:56 pm

Yes i agree as it appears Paul is revealing the New Covenant but to conclude he also is repudiating the Old Covenant as being inaccurate is reading something into his comments that are not there.
Nowhere in Derek Flood's book (or in his short paper for that matter) does Flood conclude that Paul is repudiating the Old Covenant as being inaccurate. Even I, who am inclined to think that Moses and some of the prophets mistakenly ascribed commands to God which He did not actually give, do arrive at this conclusion about the apostle Paul.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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