Did God Really Do This?

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Homer
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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:38 pm

Steve and Homer, I cannot see why you still think I believe God is impotent. I believe just as firmly as you that He is omnipotent. The two ideas: the idea that God controls every event, and the idea that He is powerless to control every event are not collectively exhaustive as explanations.
But I do not hold either of the two ideas. I believe God superintends all of His creation, somtimes actively, sometimes passively. To me, it is like a day care for children. God watches us "at play", leaving us to our free will, but with boundaries. And He steps in and intervenes as He sees fit. Otherwise, we have freedom.
I just don't think He has his hand in every event which occurs on earth.
Neither do I, but He always has a "veto".
I think He has nothing to do with human suffering (except for mild suffering, perhaps limited to mental suffering in order to correct His children as a loving human father might correct his children). I think He has nothing to do with people's deaths, and I explained some possible reasons He "allows" death in my last post to Steve.
This I do not understand. After the fall of Adam it is my understanding that God decreed that all of mankind would die a physical death, some will live a short time, and some a long time.
I don't think He has anything to do with the rape and murder of little girls. But if He "allows" it because of His permissive will, in order to bring to pass a greater good, what could that greater good possibly be? Couldn't that greater good be brought about in some way other than have little girls raped and murdered?


You are asking the same kind of questions that Job asked. In that case we know what the greater good was, but Job did not and God did not deem it Job's business to know, in spite of Job's questioning.
I find that the idea that God "allows" excruciating suffering and death for a higher purpose is always devoid of a satisfactory explanation.
As with Job, God does not owe us an explanation.
But it is human nature to know the reason why; God created us with inquisitive minds. Does God just protect some people and lift protection from others in a random fashion?
I'm confident He always has a reason in every case.
In my opinion, it is rational to seek other explanations for the problem of pain rather than to ascribe the execution of atrocities to the Loving Creator, whether their occurrence results from His active will or His "permissive" will. (I don't think there's much difference between the two.)
To me there is an obvious difference between God's active and passive superintendence of creation. He was active against Uzzah and Anannias and Saphira, for example. He was passive when John the Baptist was executed. On the other hand, because He chose not to act when He had the power to do so, He is indirectly but ultimately responsible.

Job 1:20-22

New King James Version (NKJV)

20. Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21. And he said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

22. In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.


According to your earlier post, Job was guilty of blasphemy, yet according to scripture Job was not wrong in attributing his misfortune to God.

My view, as you know, is that God is usually uninvolved, not only in human atrocities, but also in "natural" disasters (which aren't so "natural" since God didn't create the world that way)
But after the fall in the Garden God changed His creation.
— not because He is powerless, but because He chooses not to be involved. If God so chooses, He can and does become involved, and even actively prevents some human suffering and "natural" disasters. But it is rare.


I do not disagree, but this contradicts your previous position.
When we read the Bible, (both testaments) it seems that God is intervening in human affairs a lot. But that doesn't imply that He was involved a lot. It's just that the Bible records many or most of the rare occasions in which God did intervene during the times in which the authors lived.
The bible tells us all we need to know, but it does not tell us everything. We have no way of knowing how often God intervenes.
Last edited by Homer on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:00 am

Agree with much said (above and before) and felt here, life is tough, especially pain.

I agree with you Paidion, in part. God does not come and kill the innocent, God does allow it though. I disagree that God 'cannot' take a life, a good person or bad. God's usual mode of operation it seems is to let life and creation take its course. God moves throughout His creation but like a Father He picks up and opens doors for those who love Him, and those whom He acts upon, 'sometimes'. But this is the uncommon and unusual acts God does in our lives (miracles). God is expecting us to use our own freewills, after all, is not this life a test of our wills and obedience?

God said he would respond to our cry, and he also stated that sometimes He will 'not' hear. I do not demand that God is going to float me to the ground if I choose to jump off a building, just the same I expect I could die if I get in a dangerous situation. God did not promise a perfect world, this is a fallen world.
I would think Jesus could have addressed the issue here in Luke 13 if He believed God takes people or kills them when it is time;
'Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. (I thought the notion that things just happen, do to no other circumstance than entropy and gravity, was alluded to when Jesus said;) "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:1-5)

God certainly does take lives of wrong doers, but many times wrong doers take the lives of the innocent. And sometimes the innocent are taken while doing good. There is no greater good than to die doing good.
But I am personally distraught by those who would say God is responsible for, or in the habit of, taking a persons life earlier than what a person would naturally have lived. We have no reason to believe God needs us in heaven, God lives in us while we are here. Paul said; to die is gain, (personally, and for our sake), but to live is Christ" And; "…yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake"

God 'takes' us in his arms and receives us at death, maybe angels 'take' us to Him, but I believe this is how we should view death, and not encourage people to believe God takes his people home by killing them, this turns God into the Devil, who comes to kill and destroy, Jesus came that they may have life, and have it abundantly (John 10:10)

I too have had to show people that God is not in the business of killing everyone, God takes someone home after they experience the cause of death, accidental, health, old age, this is all a result of Adams sin and the curse.

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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:11 am

Paidion wrote; 'The writer to the Hebrews affirmed that the Son of God is the exact image of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). If your depiction of the character of God is correct, and if Jesus has exactly the same character as God, wouldn't we expect that He would have killed a few people while He was here on earth? But He didn't kill even one person. Indeed, He, with a wise word, prevented the Pharisees from stoning a woman to death' (Paidion Aug 26)

If you are not understanding the Gospel message (not to mention the words of Moses) then you will not understand salvation, or God. Jesus took everyone's punishment upon Himself, as the Lamb did for Isaac, and as the lamb did during temple sacrifices. So the punishment, the women's stoning also, was applied to Jesus. God did kill 'One' person, and that leads me to your comment on Peters speech in Acts under the topic of Hell…

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:43 am

Thanks for that question, Perry

I thought I have already answered it by having stated that God rarely intervenes. So the answer is "yes". The Bible is full of situations in which God have healed people, delivered people, etc. When I said God has nothing to do with deaths, I meant that He doesn't cause them. I should have made myself clearer. I hold definitely that He sometimes prevents them. Yes, God still heals people, too. I was once healed myself after the people of my church prayed for me. I had had a serious back problem. Somehow I don't recall what it was, but the doctor said he would have to make arrangements to see what could be done. After God healed me, I returned for an appointment that had been made with the doctor, and after examining me, he looked quite surprised. He said, "It looks as if I made a mistake in diagnosing you. You don't have that condition after all."
Perry wrote:If you permit that he does indeed act in some cases, then I'm curious to know what your explanation is for why he chooses to act only some of the time.
Perry, that is the question of the ages — the question of the sages! As I stated in my second last post to Steve (which begins "Hello Steve"), I don't have the complete answer, but I offered 3 reasons for every one's consideration which may partially explain it. Please refer to that post.

Actually that question is just as valid with any view other than mine — except the one which affirms that God is the cause of all events, and that everything that happens is God's will. But Jesus taught us to pray, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If His will were always being done on earth, then that prayer would be meaningless.

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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by steve7150 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:25 am

Steve 7150 wrote:Why is free will such a sacred cow?


Because God has free will and He is sacred — and He created man in His image — with free will.






You know Paidion God has a lot of other attributes that we may have to a limited extent like love,mercy,faithfulness etc so it wouldn't be odd that we have free will to a limited extent. We do make choices but our will is influenced by the devil, by our sinful nature, by a lack of understanding and by many other things, so it is not a so called "free will."


On another note, do you think it's possible that God can make right every injustice in this age in the age to come? I accept this premise even though i don't have the ability to really comprehend it. By accepting this belief it allows me to accept the entire bible without being forced to separate out parts that seem to not square with a loving God.

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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Candlepower » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:27 pm

1) If it can be shown from Scripture that God did on at least one occasion cause pain and suffering, then it seems correct to affirm that God can inflict pain and suffering.

2) If it can be shown from Scripture that God did on at least one occasion commit an atrocity, then it seems correct to contend that God can commit atrocities. (Here are some synonyms for atrocity: act of violence, massacre, killing).

3) If it can be shown from Scripture that God did on at least one occasion kill an “innocent” person, then it seems correct to assert that God can kill “innocent” people.

Numbers 21:5-7 “So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died”
Here we have an event combining painful suffering and massacre (I think it is reasonable to assume that snakebites cause painful suffering). Therefore, #1 & #2 are true.
Exodus 12:29-30 “And it came to pass at midnight that the Lord struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon…and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where there was not one dead.”
Here we have another example of God massacring. That He did it through the agency of an angel does not reduce His involvement or His responsibility a bit, in my opinion. God clearly massacred. Furthermore, it would not seem reasonable to assume that there were no babies among Egypt’s first-born…no innocent infants. It seems reasonable to say that at the Passover, in addition to killing all the adult pagan first-born, God also killed all the infant first-born, none of whom were guilty of Pharaoh’s crimes. This one event combines pain, suffering, and the mass killing of innocents. And God did it. Additionally, remember that it was not Satan who told Joshua to wipe out the Canaanites; it was God Himself. And Joshua did God's bidding (at least partially). Therefore, #1, #2, and #3 are true. Yes, Virginia, the loving Father does kill people. Some of them quite innocent.

Was God being evil at the Passover? No, unless we judge God by sentimental standards, or we assume there were no babies among the dead, which is a huge stretch. That God has something to do with death prior to the Lake of Fire seems obvious from Scripture.

When God told man to exercise dominion over the earth, it was a very lofty assignment. But man’s “dominion” is not ultimate; God’s dominion is ultimate. Man’s “dominion” is exercised under God, not apart from Him. Similarly, Satan is the “Prince of the Power of the air,” and the “Ruler of this world,” and “has the power of death.” But in all cases, Satan functions in terms of God’s sovereignty. The Devil is not an autonomous ruler. He is under God’s rule. Ultimately, God has power over life and death. We can trust He will always do what is right.

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Homer
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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:52 pm

Candlepower,

Amen brother! And in Joshua we read God fought with Israel.

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Perry
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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Perry » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:08 pm

Paidion,

I've been a little hesitant to comment further for a couple of reasons. 1). It seems like there are a lot of people taking a view that is somewhat opposed to yours, and I didn't want you to feel "ganged up" on. 2). I certainly don't want to marginalize the real suffering both you and Steve have mentioned, or make it seem like an academic exercise to discuss, particularly when I have personally lived a rather pain-free existence. (for which I am very thankful.) 3). Your beard creeps me out.... ;)

It seems like you've taken the "God is mysterious" approach in answering my question, which is one of the same approaches you seemed to be criticizing in an earlier post. In saying that, though, I don't mean to suggest that I really disagree with your latest answer. It is a tough question, and one that holds no pat answers.

My observation is this... and I don't offer this, necessarily, as a contradiction to anything that you have said.

I think the real good that can come from pain is almost impossible for us to calculate or quantify. I have a niece who recently went through an excruciatingly long labor to give birth to a stillborn child. It was her first child, and she had so been looking forward to being a new mother. Now whether we say this was God's permissive will, or His active will, or that it was the work of the devil, or however we want to label it, is, to my thinking, largely irrelevant. The primary point for me is, I think it is absolutely wrong thinking to suggest that God was entirely divorced from the situation. He simply was not. This event has sent ripples through our family that is doing good in ways that I think none of us, as yet, can fully appreciate. We probably never will in this life.

I remember years ago, an elderly lady in our church was involved in a terrible automobile accident. This lady had been a vibrant, glowing personality in our fellowship, who had a very hospitable home... one of those places where everyone always felt welcome... (Although her home, from a physical standpoint was quite humble, it was very common for lots of people to gather there.) The accident left her wheel-chair bound, completely unable to speak, and, frankly, in some what of a vegetative state.

Of course, the all-consuming question, when we encounter such things is, "why"? We look for pat answers that help us try to get a grip on the realities of what takes place. If we can explain it, we can understand it, and then it's not so arbitrary and scarey. To me that's way too simplistic, and, please realize, if we were face-to-face, I would be saying this with as gentle an expression as I can muster, I think this idea that, well, it's all the devil's fault, and because we live in a fallen creation... that answer is way to simplistic too. It seems to be an attempt to leave God out of the picture.

Now I understand, appreciate, and absolutely applaud that you want to make sure that the character of God is in no way maligned, or smudged, or somehow denigrated by the problem of evil. Thank you for that. God bless you for that!

But, well, I don't think that it says anything at all bad about God's character to suggest that He had a hand in the events I've described above... or that He had a hand in the death of your wife, or the death of Steve's. I certainly think He has had a hand in many of the blessings of my life... and He has even had a hand in those things which may never seem like blessings, but really are... Those things which, in retrospect, often turn out to be blessings, not just for one individual, but blessings for many.

Anyway, my main point is, when you hear someone suggest that God's hand was in something that, on the face of it, appears very evil to us... that shocks our sensibilities... I realize that, for some, that may be just a cop-out, easy pat answer. But sometimes, it may be a genuine declaration of faith. We can't see the good that comes from it, or at least, not the good that is enough to offset the bad. (In a strange way, I was blessed when that lady in our church had the car accident. It woke me up to certain realities. But I wouldn't want to have to face her and tell her that her horrible suffering was for my benefit, even though, it a bizarre way, I did benefit from it. I certainly would not want to face a freshly raped little girl, or her parents, and prattle on about how it's really some kind of blessing that we're just too shortsighted to recognize as such.) But faith is believing in something, even when we can't see it. It is not meant to malign the character of God, but to cling to God, even when, to all appearances, He seems to have abandoned us.

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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:06 pm

Steve 7150 wrote:You know Paidion God has a lot of other attributes that we may have to a limited extent like love,mercy,faithfulness etc so it wouldn't be odd that we have free will to a limited extent. We do make choices but our will is influenced by the devil, by our sinful nature, by a lack of understanding and by many other things, so it is not a so called "free will."
I fully agree, Steve, that our choices "are influenced by Satanic powers, our sinful nature and many other things." The "many other things" would include the influence of other people. However, this doesn't "limit" our free will. Rather, as you said, it "influences" our free will. There's quite a difference between the two. A man might influence his 10 y old son's free will by stating that if he does that again (where "that" is some action of which the father disapproves or has forbidden), he will be grounded for a week. However, this influence, (or rather threat), does not limit the free will of the son. The son may still choose do to that in spite of the consequences.

I'm sure you agree that God has complete free will — unlimited free will. He can do what He wants. But even His free will is sometimes influenced by people. That's why our prayer does make a difference in what God will do. I mentioned that I was healed of a back condition after prayer. I am inclined to think that wouldn't have happened if there had been no prayer. Of course a Calvinist would say that although that might be true, the prayer itself was offered because it was God's will, and so that what took place was all part of a sequence of events which were predestined to happen.

In Jonah 3:10 we read the following:
Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that he had said he would bring upon them, and he did not do it.

This verse seems to indicate that when God saw the works of repentance that the Ninevites were doing, He felt sorry that he had intended to bring about this disaster upon the Ninevites, and thus changed his mind about it, and didn't do it after all.

So although this verse suggests that God's decision was influenced by the repentance of the Ninevites, it doesn't follow that His free will was limited. He could have chosen to destroy the Ninevites as He had intended in spite of their repentance.
Paidion

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Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:35 pm

Homer wrote:
Paidion wrote:In my opinion, it is rational to seek other explanations for the problem of pain rather than to ascribe the execution of atrocities to the Loving Creator, whether their occurrence results from His active will or His "permissive" will. (I don't think there's much difference between the two.)
To me there is an obvious difference between God's active and passive superintendence of creation. He was active against Uzzah and Anannias and Saphira, for example. He was passive when John the Baptist was executed. On the other hand, because He chose not to act when He had the power to do so, He is indirectly but ultimately responsible.
You are quite right, Homer. There is a great and obvious difference between the two — a great deal of difference between actively bringing an event to pass and doing nothing to prevent an event from happening. Unfortunately I sometimes don't say enough in my posts to explain my position. What I meant in the sentence you quoted above, is that from the standpoint that everything happens according to God's will — either His active will or His "permissive" will — there is not much difference between the two, since from that point of view God is responsible for all events, including the atrocities I have often mentioned. Your final sentence, "... because He chose not to act when He had the power to do so, He is indirectly but ultimately responsible," seems to indicate that this is your position. If God is responsible for all events, then He is responsible for all of those horrible murders, tortures, rapes of children, etc. This is the position with which I am in sharp disagreement. I affirm that God is NOT responsible in any sense for all those atrocities, even though He COULD prevent them. For there are other considerations to explain why He does not prevent them (I refer you to the three reasons which I had previously posted)"
1. God has created man with the power to choose. Because this free will is perhaps the primary way in which man was created in the image of God, God chooses to seldom interfere with man's choices. It is a sort of respect for His own creation.

2. Mankind had fallen, by his sin and rebellion in Eden, and all nature fell with him. Since I believe in a "young" earth, the question about animals devouring one another prior to Adam and Eve does not form a part of my thinking. In the present, God has not usually prevented hurricanes, tsunamis, famine, drought, and other such conditions which cause horrible suffering and death among humanity. He has not generally prevented aids, malaria, leprosy, horrible intestinal worms, etc. from causing great suffering. All of these plagues are not part of God's creation in their present form. We read in Genesis 1 that all things which God created, He saw as good. The plagues I have just mentioned, and the other conditions are not good. The suggestion that God has a deeper purpose for "allowing" these plagues is grasping at straws. These plagues and "natural" conditions were a later development — as I see it, the result of the fall of nature. But why did God allow the results of the fall to continue to cause suffering? I don't know. The thought has crossed my mind that since man chose to do things his way, God is in effect saying, "Go ahead and do it your way. See whether or not this fulfills your needs." But this is just a thought, and I don't offer it as a definitive explanation.

3. God has created the Universe with a set of natural laws. These are necessary in order to have a working universe. If God intervened too often by performing miracles in order to relieve people of suffering, this would upset the system He established and create anomalies which would be quite confusing. For example, suppose He decided to keep all Christians who accidentally stumbled at the edge of a cliff and began to fall off the cliff from being killed. Suppose that instead of falling the usual way, they just floated to the bottom like a feather. Then gravity would not have a reliable effect. Sometimes objects would fall hard, and other times float slowly as they fell. Surely God would not permit such inconsistencies in nature.
By the way, if everything happens according to God's will, then wouldn't the sentence, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" be meaningless? For His will would always be being done on earth.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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