Does God foreknow future choices that we make?

[Guest]

Paidion, Can you please provide the scripture to support your position?

[Guest]

Steve and others.


I also apologize for any places you feel I may have stepped out into "private" conversation. Knowing this is part of the public domain I do not think my personal replies have been in the spirit of offending anyone. But apparently even those I have written, have offended some of you.

I guess I believe part of being fellow Christians some times envolves personal quick comments here and there. I am apparently one of the few that does. For myself, I am not as intellectual as most of you, but I do feel like I have words to offer that have insight through the life I have lived so far with the Lord.

I may not be able to insert it all down in scripture like most of you. I still feel it has value. I do believe we all have a piece of the pie (all parts of the body are needed)

So in that sense adding something "from the heart", kept short, even though all to see or read it to me, wasn't meant to be unloving or uncaring.


just my thoughts

Glow

[Guest]

Very good Glow.

One valid question that many people will ask in regard to the subject covered in this teaching is, “If God does not have absolute foreknowledge, seeing the whole future before it happens, how then can He so accurately predict things like a Persian king named ‘Cyrus’”? Another is, “What about the incredibly specific prophecies about the events of Jesus’ life, like none of his bones being broken, etc., etc.?”

A Valid Question

One valid question that many people will ask in regard to the subject covered in this teaching is, “If God does not have absolute foreknowledge, seeing the whole future before it happens, how then can He so accurately predict things like a Persian king named ‘Cyrus’”? Another is, “What about the incredibly specific prophecies about the events of Jesus’ life, like none of his bones being broken, etc., etc.?”
May we suggest that there is an alternative answer to the question, other than that God already sees every future event from the distant past. It is the answer set forth in the enclosed teaching, and is that God is so powerful, so knowledgeable, so faithful, so resourceful and so loving that He is able to do whatever He unconditionally promises. Since there is no verse that says that God saw in the past every event in the future, we think that this alternative is also much more biblical. Some will cite Isaiah 46:10, which says that God sees “the end from the beginning,” but this statement is made in relationship to His purposes, not His knowledge. The verse closes with the statement “I will do all that I please.” The emphasis is on His ability to keep His promises and perform His Word.

It is apparent that “on either side of the coin” our mind boggles. On the one side, we cannot possibly understand how God could know our choices before we make them, and yet we still have genuine free will. On the other side of the coin, we cannot fathom God’s ability to bring to pass prophecies as specifically as He does. But as stated in the teaching, for us the “open” view is far more biblically sound and far more appealing than the “closed” view of God. It also makes God much more personal, powerful and present.

One major problem with the idea that God has absolute foreknowledge is that it renders His many dialogues with people like Abraham, Moses, Jonah, etc., meaningless, if not disingenuous. If God already saw in His foreknowledge that the Ninevites would repent, then He could not honestly convey to Jonah the possibility of them not repenting. If on the other hand, they were genuine free moral agents whose free will decisions could not be known absolutely until they were made, then God’s dialogue to Jonah is both honest and understandable.

Our experience over the years has shown that this is a potentially volatile subject that generates strong emotional responses from those who feel that it threatens their conception of God. Much love, wisdom and patience needs to be shown toward those who may be in this category. We present this teaching in the hope that all who hear it will prayerfully take it to the Word of God and be like the Bereans, who “searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). Many who do so will find this perspective more scriptural and rational, and energizing greater commitment to prayer, worship, obedience and evangelism. Could that be a bad thing?

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... ew_topic=4

For several articles on God's foreknowledge, to perhaps understand the subject better.

[Guest]

I have never understood why this has to be the case.

Why can't God simply know in advance the outcome of our freewill choices? It doesn't change the fact that we made choices from our own freewill. At least as far as I can tell.

God bless,
Derek

I also agree with this statement.


Paidion,
Have you considered that "time" is defined by whom it relates to? In other words, God created the sun, moon and stars to discern the seasons, aka time. If we go into a cave without a clock for weeks at a time we loose track of "time" because we have nothing to relate to. Is God "under" his own creation (time)?

It's possible that if time has a beginning. If so, it doesn't seem that God would be subject to it, but rather the other way around. It also seems that time, as "in the beginning" (Genesis) relates to physical matter. Angels may have already existed before this, maybe not.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said: "Time actually had a beginning. With respect to that beginning, there was no before."

If there is no "eternity past" and there was a beginning of time, who (or what) "began" it? Was it not God? And if God "began" or initiated time did He not create it? And if I understand you, God is ruled by time, just as we are, and therefore He is not infinite.

I believe we are in way over our heads here, as I alluded in a previous post.

Homer

[Guest]

Ya, we are in way over our heads for sure.

The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.

Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=343

[Guest]

Ya, we are in way over our heads for sure.

The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.

Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=343

Nobody is suggesting that we "sit passively" by just because we believe that God knows the outcome.
When I read the scriptures, I do not find any writer putting a limitation on God, other than moral issues("God cannot lie" "Not a man" ETC..).
How can we, being finite teach that God, who is infinite, is lacking the knowledge to know the future? When it is clear that God has spoken things in times past that happened. He also gives some of his servants the gift to tell someone what is going to happen (gift of Prophecy).

I think your truthortradition website has mislead you on this issue Brother.

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I am going to attempt to respond to your comments and questions in reverse order:

I believe we are in way over our heads here, as I alluded in a previous post.

It seems to me that if we are in over our heads, it may be because we are unwilling to consider the relative simplicity of the matter, and instead complicate it with the irrational "eternity past" concept

And if I understand you, God is ruled by time, just as we are, and therefore He is not infinite.

If that's what you think, then clearly you don't understand me. Never have I suggested such a thing.

If there is no "eternity past" and there was a beginning of time, who (or what) "began" it? Was it not God?

Yes, it was indeed God who "began" it! He initiated the first event, the begetting of His Son. For when the second event (whatever it was) occurred, then time began. Then there was a "space of time" between the two events.

And if God "began" or initiated time did He not create it?

No. It was unnecessary to create time. Time was the consequence of God's inititation of events.

In similar manner, space was not created. Space did not exist until God created matter. Space is simply a measure of the distance between two objects, and thus the consequence of His having created matter. There has to be at least one object before the concept of "space" makes any sense. There will be a "space" or distance from one part of that object to another part.

You may consider my understanding simplistic. So be it!
No it doesn't fit Einsteinian concepts of space and time. I suspect that Einstein's theories were not really about space and time at all, but about the behaviour of light.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said

Yes, it was indeed God who "began" it! He initiated the first event, the begetting of His Son. For when the second event (whatever it was) occurred, then time began. Then there was a "space of time" between the two events.

I am not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying that God "created" Jesus?.. As if to say that Jesus is a created being?

[Guest]

I am not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying that God "created" Jesus?.. As if to say that Jesus is a created being?

Jesus is a begotten Being. The only-begotten Son of God. His Father was the source of His existence.

As we use the words "create" and "beget", there is a distinct difference. We might say an artist "creates' a picture, or a cabinet-maker "creates" a cabinet. The picture is quite different from the artist. The cabinet is quite different from the cabinet-maker. However, if the artist begets a son, that son is a human being like his father. The same, of course, with the cabinet-maker.

The Father begat (generated) a Son who was the express image of the Father's essence. Through the Son, the Father created angels, and the components of the universe: galaxies, stars, planets, moons, etc. Through the Son, animals and plants were created upon the earth. All of these things that God created are unlike Himself, with the exeption of man, who was created "in His image", but unlike the unique Son of God, man was not identical to the Father. He became "the son of man" when He was born upon the earth, but always was the Son of God, the only one.

So... as the ancient creed says, "begotten not created".

Nevertheless, the Greek word for "create" is also sometimes used for "beget". This fact confuses the issue for many.

Thus we have, in the scriptures, Jesus called "the first-born of creation". And in Proverbs 8 the reference to Wisdom being "created as the beginning of His works".