These verses from Rom 11 make it sound as if salvation before Christ was works based:
(5) Even so then, also in this present time a remnant according to the election of grace has come into being.
(6) But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.
Used to be of works, but no more...
(20) Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.
This seems to add to the thought; as if the Jews who didn't believe after Christ were broken off - that they were part of the olive tree before Christ just becasue they were Jews or because they followed the laws or some reason other than grace.
How do we really explain these verses?
Verses make salvation seem works based in O.T.
Verses make salvation seem works based in O.T.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Brad,
Consider this:
Hebrews 3:17-19; "Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
Here we see the actions, of those who could not enter the promised land, described in terms of obedience. The root cause of their disobedience is assigned to unbelief.
And consider this:
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
You might find interesting the topic "The Meaning of Faith of Faith (Pistis)" in the "Church Life" category.
Blessings, Homer
Consider this:
Hebrews 3:17-19; "Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
Here we see the actions, of those who could not enter the promised land, described in terms of obedience. The root cause of their disobedience is assigned to unbelief.
And consider this:
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
You might find interesting the topic "The Meaning of Faith of Faith (Pistis)" in the "Church Life" category.
Blessings, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer quoted:
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Paul was not writing here about "positional righeousness" (he never does), but about actual righteousness. Real righteousness cannot come about by trying to follow the law of Moses. All such efforts ultimately fail.
But real righteousness comes about in a person's life, after he repents and submits to the authority of Christ, and through enabling grace follows the teachings of Christ as He taught them in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
This is the very reason Christ died.
1 Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed [from sin].
Salvation from sin is a process that the Lord is working out in us together with our coöperation.
Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
No, self-effort alone will never bring about righteousness ---- salvation from sin. Nor will God bring it about alone. But "working together with God", we are being delivered. And "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ."
But usually when people affirm "Salvation is not of works", they are not speaking of salvation from sin, but "salvation from hell", a phrase we never find in the Bible. They are saying that "you can never work your way into heaven". That, of course, is true. It is not by self-effort. On the other hand, neither can you expect heaven, if you just sit back, and "rest on the finished works of Christ". This is an illusion. Nowhere does Christ or His apostles teach that. The writer of Hebrews tells us to "strive for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
Let's consider the following passage, and then ask ourselves whether works has no relation to obtaining eternal life:
Romans 2:6-10
For He will render to everyone according to his works.
To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Paul was not writing here about "positional righeousness" (he never does), but about actual righteousness. Real righteousness cannot come about by trying to follow the law of Moses. All such efforts ultimately fail.
But real righteousness comes about in a person's life, after he repents and submits to the authority of Christ, and through enabling grace follows the teachings of Christ as He taught them in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
This is the very reason Christ died.
1 Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed [from sin].
Salvation from sin is a process that the Lord is working out in us together with our coöperation.
Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
No, self-effort alone will never bring about righteousness ---- salvation from sin. Nor will God bring it about alone. But "working together with God", we are being delivered. And "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ."
But usually when people affirm "Salvation is not of works", they are not speaking of salvation from sin, but "salvation from hell", a phrase we never find in the Bible. They are saying that "you can never work your way into heaven". That, of course, is true. It is not by self-effort. On the other hand, neither can you expect heaven, if you just sit back, and "rest on the finished works of Christ". This is an illusion. Nowhere does Christ or His apostles teach that. The writer of Hebrews tells us to "strive for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
Let's consider the following passage, and then ask ourselves whether works has no relation to obtaining eternal life:
Romans 2:6-10
For He will render to everyone according to his works.
To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
TK, having faith just means you trust God. My wife is an accountant by trade so she handles the bills in our family. When she tells me we can't afford a trip to the movies, I trust that she's telling the truth. The fact that I trust her doesn't mean I'm doing a good work, it just means I believe her. But if I do believe her then I'll act accordingly and won't go to the movies. So the result of my faith would produce a good work. Faith and works are married together.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I understand and agree, but it doesn't help explain the verses at hand.Homer wrote: Consider this:
Hebrews 3:17-19; "Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
Of course, this wouldn't preclude salvation of a different type in times before Christ - not that I hold that view.Homer wrote: And consider this:
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Brad,
I believe Paul is stating a general principle in this verse:
I believe Paul is stating a general principle in this verse:
I believe Paul is saying that if anyone could earn salvatian, i.e., be righteous enough in and of themselves to make grace unnecessary, then Jesus' death was in vain. If any one person could do it, then potentially all could.Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Homer stated his understanding quite succinctly. Mine may require just a little more explanation.
First, I'll just give it a bit of context:
For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose. RSV
Paul referred to "false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage". These persons were teaching that it was necessary to be circumcised and observe the laws of Moses in order to become righteous (a process), and therefore be acceptable to God. But Paul taught that
it was through the enabling grace of God, made available through Christ's death, that we become righteous. If it were through the law, then Christ died in vain.
So Paul said that he "died to the law". He no longer looks the law as a possible avenue to righteousness, but he is "crucified with Christ", that is, he has died to self, even as Christ died in His entire Being on the cross.
Now by "faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me", Paul is able to overcome wrong doing and live righteously before God. This doesn't mean that Paul had become perfect. For he said in Philippians 3:8-12
I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. RSV
Homer stated his understanding quite succinctly. Mine may require just a little more explanation.
First, I'll just give it a bit of context:
For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose. RSV
Paul referred to "false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage". These persons were teaching that it was necessary to be circumcised and observe the laws of Moses in order to become righteous (a process), and therefore be acceptable to God. But Paul taught that
it was through the enabling grace of God, made available through Christ's death, that we become righteous. If it were through the law, then Christ died in vain.
So Paul said that he "died to the law". He no longer looks the law as a possible avenue to righteousness, but he is "crucified with Christ", that is, he has died to self, even as Christ died in His entire Being on the cross.
Now by "faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me", Paul is able to overcome wrong doing and live righteously before God. This doesn't mean that Paul had become perfect. For he said in Philippians 3:8-12
I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. RSV
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
You're too close to a works based righteousness here. This verse strikes me as similar to Mark 16:16:Paidion wrote:Homer quoted:
Let's consider the following passage, and then ask ourselves whether works has no relation to obtaining eternal life:
Romans 2:6-10
For He will render to everyone according to his works.
To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
The second clause indicates what the bottom line for salvation is: belief. The first clause indicates that baptizm and salvation naturally go together. So also in the verse from Romans, the latter clause indicates the bottom line: those who are not persuaded by the truth.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Right, but this still could indicate that nobody can earn salvation post-Christ in such a manner (though I know it doesn't).Homer wrote:Brad,
I believe Paul is stating a general principle in this verse:
I believe Paul is saying that if anyone could earn salvatian, i.e., be righteous enough in and of themselves to make grace unnecessary, then Jesus' death was in vain. If any one person could do it, then potentially all could.Galatians 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
I know the verses I started the post with don't indicate what they seem to indicate (unless all the Bible study in my life has been in vain), I'm trying to determine what they really mean.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: