Well, it looks as if I have a whole raft of questions to answer. So I'll start with the following one from TK:
Further (not to gang up too much on Paidion)-- Isaiah 53 seems to paint the picture of a messiah who is being sacrificed FOR our sins, not simply so that we can stop sinning.
It’s interesting, TK, that the official Jewish explanation of Isaiah 53 is that the suffering servant is
Israel. However, when, as a young man in bible school, I did Jewish visitation, I showed one Jewish man a pamphlet that contained Isaiah 53 in three languages: Hebrew, Yiddish, and English. I asked him if he had ever read that passage before. He said that he hadn’t. Then I asked him about whom he thought the passage was talking. He replied, “Why the Mashiach, of course!” I was amazed that a Jewish man who had never read the passage could recognize it immediately as speaking of the Messiah.
TK, how do you understand His being sacrificed FOR our sin? Do you think this means He took our place so that we would not have to suffer for our own sin?
What follows is my understanding of the relevant verses from Isaiah 53. I quote from an English translation of the Septuagint Greek. The Septuagint was used by the NT writers, as well as second century writers;
4 He bears (or “endures”) our sins, and is pained concerning us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction.
Matthew, who may have written his gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic, in Mt 8:17 seems to have quoted this verse from the Hebrew as “took [away] our infirmities and carried [off] our diseases.” At least that is the meaning of the Greek gospel. Matthew states that Jesus fulfilled this scripture by casting out demons and healing diseases.
5 But he was wounded because of our lawlessness, and was bruised (or “made sick”) because of our sin: the training of our well-being was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed.
6 All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord gave him up to our sins.
Jesus was wounded and put to death because of the lawlessness and sin of His killers. Murder was against God’s laws, and was sinful. It might be true that we are all responsible for His death in the sense that if there were not universal sin in mankind, His death would have been unnecessary. “The Lord gave Him up to our sins.” That is, the Father allowed Him to be killed.
He sacrificed Himself to
do away with sin (Heb 9:26), and the process of freeing us from sin constitutes a “training for our well-being.” [Note: if you happen to think this should be “the chastisement of our peace” as in the AV, I would really like to know what that phrase could possibly mean]. His bruises, His death were the means by which were were healed of our sin sickness. Peter makes this clear in I Peter 2:24, 25 where he refers to these verses:
He himself bore (or “endured”) our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his bruises you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
And now back to the passage:
7 And he, because of his affliction, opens not his mouth: he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth.
Luke referred to this verse in Acts 8:32, 33.
8. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death.
The second century Christian writers understood “Who shall declare his generation?” as indicating that no one really understands His having been generated before all ages. However, I don’t understand why “for his life is taken away from the earth” should follow this.
9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth.
10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his plague. If you [plural] can give an offering concerning sin, your soul shall see a long–lived seed:
I need help in understanding verse 10!
11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to show him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall endure their sins.
The Father justifies (shows to be righteous) the righteous One (His Son) who serves many well by dying for them, thereby freeing them from sin.
12Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors;
Some Greek manuscripts contain Mark 15:28 in which the last sentence is explained as having been fulfilled when He was put to death between the two thieves.
13 and he endured the sins of many, and was delivered up because of their iniquities. .
Jesus endured the cruelty of His killers, and was delivered up to them because of the wickedness of the Pharisees, and that of Judas, of course