Thoughts On The Eternity Of Hell

_Benzoic
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Post by _Benzoic » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Christians are made righteous on the basis that Christ’s righteousness has been imputed onto us. I was holding to the fact that no one can enter by their works and that is what Paul was maintaining in Romans chapter 3. Righteousness can only be obtained through the Lord Jesus Christ.

With that in mind, we also can say that righteousness demonstrated in a Christian’s life has nothing to do with gaining salvation, but is a product of salvation. I agree with everything you stated as far as bearing fruit, and those are marks that distinguish a Christian from a non-Christian, but it does not make them righteous. They are already righteous through Christ.

Righteous acts that are demonstrated by a Christian reveal who is working in them. Works are a result of salvation, and they do not form salvation.
Jesus made it clear that people who do not accept Him go to hell, and he offered no other exceptions.


Please quote the passage where he made that clear.


John 3:36 states God’s wrath abides on those who reject Christ and that they will not see life unless they believe.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"

And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, am not of this world.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:21-24


Although in John 8:21-24 Jesus didn't explicitly say these particular Jews would go to hell, he did say they would not follow Him. I'm anticipating that you may say Jesus could have ment that they wouldn't follow Him into the same place He currently is, but maybe at some later time they would be with Him. However, in John 13:36 Jesus states to Peter,

"Where I go, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later."

He tells Peter he cannot follow, but that he will later on. Why wouldn't Jesus say this to the Jews in john 8:21-24?




Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3


Jesus seems to be saying that one cannot be part of His kingdom here on earth unless he is regenerated.
In John 3:3, how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus was referring to an earthly kingdom? Where in the records is it documented that Jesus spoke about an earthly kingdom that he was a king of and the necessity of becoming part of this earthly kingdom?

To address pre-destination, and I don’t want to argue about this, because this is not the proper thread to discuss it, but out of respect I will answer your questions. I believe that a person has a choice to believe in what Christ did and repent, but that God must also choose that person. As someone once said “It’s 100% your choice and 100% God’s choice, that’s 200%. I don’t know how it works, but that’s what the Bible teaches.”

Might I also add, that we do not need to know how it works, all we have to do is believe and repent. Why do I bother witnessing to people? Because as Paul stated,

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

Why bother witnessing to someone who is destined to hell? I have no idea what God has declared on a person. All I can do is witness, people can live to reject Jesus their whole lives and come to accept Him the moment before they pass on. I haven’t been given that divine knowledge, and so all I can do is be obedient in showing people how they can be reconciled to God.

Also, how can you say that 99.9% will be in hell if what I believe in is true? Do you know how long this Earth will exist? Do you know if there will be a massive revival all around the world in the future? Do you know how many have been saved up to this point in comparison to those who haven’t? No one but God knows. We can speculate, but that doesn't make it true or even ‘probably’ true.

What if hell is a horrible place, but its punishment is proportioned in such a perfect way that it lasts eternity?
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:48 pm

Benzoic wrote:What if hell is a horrible place, but its punishment is proportioned in such a perfect way that it lasts eternity?
Benzoic,

I'm just curious. What do you believe would be the purpose for what you have described here?....that is, endless punishment.

Todd
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Post by _Homer » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:03 am

Benzoic,

I am not a Calvinist, but I must agree with you regarding the issue of faith, works, and imputed righteousness. The branch on my apple tree produces apples because of the life that is in it from the tree and because of what it is. No fruit, I prune it off. I have a tree with three varieties of apples grafted onto it. If they weren't part of the tree, they would be dead branches. In and of themselves they can produce nothing. Read something similar to this somewhere; John 15? :wink:

Todd, et al,
I'm just curious. What do you believe would be the purpose for what you have described here?....that is, endless punishment.
How about "Vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord". You might want to read Hebrews 10: 26-30. What is a fitting punishment for one who treats God with contempt and, in effect, calls God a liar, which is the essence of unbelief?

I have asked for a positive statement, just one, that informs us of the temporary state of the lost. I have not been given one, only quotes of scripture wrested from their context:
1 Tim 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:10
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
None of these scriptures have in view the final destiny of the saved and lost; that is not the subject matter of their context. What do they mean? Jesus will save all or is He potentially the Savior of all? Each one must be exegeted in its context and considered with other relevant texts.

You can clear up this matter once and for all if you give us one scripture that speaks of the temporary status post-mortem of the wicked. The Greek language is perfectly capable of informing us of this. The Greek word proskairos (temporary, transitory, passing) was known and used by Matthew, Mark, Paul, and the author (Paul?) of Hebrews and would have done very well.

Matthew himself used the word in Matt. 13:21; "yet he has no root in himself, but only endures for awhile (proskairos)." Why would Matthew not use it in Matt. 25:46, or any word which would plainly indicate temporary (or ending) punishnment rather than form an antithetical statement indicating the punishment of the wicked to be of the same duration as the life of the saved? Surely if your doctrine is truth we ought to have been informed of it.

You furnish us with not one clear statement from scripture supporting your view because there aren't any while there are a number of statements that inform us that it shall not be with the wicked as it will be with the righteous in the hereafter.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:00 am

How about "Vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord". You might want to read Hebrews 10: 26-30. What is a fitting punishment for one who treats God with contempt and, in effect, calls God a liar, which is the essence of unbelief?


My understanding is that the word translated into "vengence" can be translated into "justice." Justice as in an "eye for an eye." And God says he will "repay" meaning equal price paid for the crime.
And of course our favorite word "aionios" and whether it means eternal or not ,will ultimately be a key to unlocking this issue. It's just one of those secret things that belong to the Lord ,Duet 29.29 and we may not know for certain until we see clearly through the glass.
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Post by _Father_of_five » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:44 am

Homer,

You say that I don’t cite any plain scriptures, yet I listed several that plainly state that Jesus is the Savior of the world. You want to insert the word “potentially” in there because it fits your belief system better. When John the Baptist said that Jesus is the ”Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” was he wrong? Should he have said, “who potentially takes away the sin of the world”? When the Apostle Paul said that Jesus is the “Savior of all men, especially of them who believe,” was he wrong? Should he have said “only of them who believe”?

Another problem with your view is that the rules that you believe are taught in scripture only apply to a small minority of mankind who has heard the Gospel. According to you, the Bible is silent on what happens to the vast majority of mankind who has not heard the Gospel.

I suppose that we will never see eye-to-eye on this subject as long as we have very different views of God’s character. You seem to view God as someone who makes a contract and is very vengeful against those who break it. I view God as someone who is so loving that when the first covenant didn’t work, because the people couldn’t keep it, that He replaced it with one that made no requirements of man – God provided his own sacrifice that was eternal. I believe that is exactly what is taught in Jeremiah 31:31-34; that is, that the problem with the first covenant was that man couldn’t keep it, so he provided a better covenant that removed this requirement, saying that, “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Homer, I am sure you would say that this is conditional, but I believe it means exactly what is says. If it is conditional then the new covenant is not much different from the first.

God is a loving god who gave His only Son for a sinful world. He is not vengeful but tells us to do good unto our enemies (which is His true character).

Matt 5:43-45
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

So, you will say that I ignore all the scriptures that talk of punishment for sinners. Actually, I do not. This again reflects our different views of God’s character. You view God as vengeful against sinners who punishes them forever is hell, while I view God as a loving Father who corrects His children. This “correction” is meant as a call to repentance; so that the child can realize the true abundant life that God has for those who love Him. Again, as I have stated in other threads, I believe that all of God’s corrections happen during our lifetime while there is still time to realize these blessings. Any punishment that happens after death is meaningless and serves no purpose.

I think that the difference in interpretation comes largely from the understanding of what “eternal life” means. You believe that this is referring to life after physical death; whereas, I believe it is talking about abundant life after spiritual death. These are very different. I believe that when our physical bodies are resurrected at Christ’s return we put on “immortality,” not “eternal life.” Again, these are different. We have “eternal life” as soon as we put our faith in Christ and God rewards us with the fruits of the Spirit. But yet, even when we have enjoyed this eternal life, our bodies still die at some point. So, as I see it, eternal life has nothing to do with the state of our physical bodies; whereas, immortality has everything to do with it. Therefore, when Christ returns, and the [physical] resurrection happens, all will be raised, we will put on immortality, death will be swallowed up in victory, and God will be all in all.

Todd
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:13 am

Another problem with your view is that the rules that you believe are taught in scripture only apply to a small minority of mankind who has heard the Gospel. According to you, the Bible is silent on what happens to the vast majority of mankind who has not heard the Gospel.



This is the heart of the matter and since God is a God of justice , then what is justice? Does God arbitrarily pick a tiny minority for salvation or if we believe tradition Arminianism then salvation is akin to a lottery game meaning to a very large extent it depends on who you come into contact with in this life.
Or does God give everyone an equal opportunity , which IMHO can only be in the Lake of Fire.
In the historicist view of Revelation the "great multitude" found in Rev 7 and 19 very well could be the followers of Christ who preach to the unsaved in the LOF.
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Post by _TK » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:53 am

hey steve--

you have probably stated this before but if so i cant remember-- do you believe there is suffering in the LOF?

the reason i ask is because if there IS, then it still isnt an equal opportunity situation because those who respond to the gospel while living do not have to go there, while those that do not respond do.

TK
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:18 pm

you have probably stated this before but if so i cant remember-- do you believe there is suffering in the LOF?

the reason i ask is because if there IS, then it still isnt an equal opportunity situation because those who respond to the gospel while living do not have to go there, while those that do not respond do.




Hey TK, The bible does'nt really say per se unless you believe some of Jesus imagery about Gehenna pertains to the LOF, which it probably does.
I could speculate but i'm sure God can work out the details because as Paul said we reap what we sow.
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Post by _Benzoic » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:23 pm

Why is it in your belief that it is just to send people to hell, but not for eternity? What makes it just to keep them in there for a while, but not eternally? I’m not asking for your personal feelings and biases, what I’m asking for is Biblical proof. You show verses that God desires all to be saved, okay, but how does that tell us people will not spend eternity in hell? Your emotions get in the way and you derive that there is no eternal hell because God is too loving. You cannot say that an eternal hell makes the punishment worse, because God can make an eternal hell the same level of punishment as that of a temporal hell.

I cannot prove that an eternal hell is more just than a temporal hell, but I do know what the Bible states. I’m not about to side for a temporal hell, because my emotions tell me an eternal hell is unjust, which my emotions do not btw. What does the Bible say?

Jesus stated that those who reject Him will not follow Him. (John 8:21-24)

Jesus stated that those who reject Him will not see life. What do people get instead of life – wrath (John 3:36).

Jesus stated unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John3:3) Show me a verse that tells us a person can be born again in hell.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mat. 25:46) I’m aware that the Greek word translated as eternal, to some, does not necessarily mean eternal. However, why does the word ‘eternal’ life mean exactly that, eternal life, while ‘eternal’ punishment does not mean eternal punishment? The same Greek word used for ‘eternal’ punishment is used for ‘eternal’ life. Why then would you assume that the punishment in hell is not eternal?

In mark 3:28-29, Jesus states there is an unforgivable sin. If there is an unforgivable sin, how will one get into heaven?

In Luke 13:22-27, the disciples ask Jesus, “are there just a few who are being saved?” Jesus shows that there will be people confessing Him as Lord when it is too late, and does the Lord let them in the kingdom? No, they are shut outside and told to depart, with absolutely no implication of a future chance to get in. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to promote the idea of universalism as His disciples prompt the question. For some, that may be hard to swallow, but you cannot malign scripture to mold around your own feelings.

What does the Bible say? Does the Bible say people can be saved in hell? Does the Bible say hell is not eternal? Does the Bible say God WILL save all people or does it say he desires to save all people?

Has God always carried out His desires? The answer is no. Did God desire all the horrific things that have happened in the world? Did God stop these things from happening?
You view God as vengeful against sinners who punishes them forever is hell, while I view God as a loving Father who corrects His children.
Who are His children? All mankind are not God’s children. Jesus corrected the Jews in John 8:44 and stated their father was not God, but the devil. Furthermore, God’s forgiveness is only upon those who express faith in Christ, everyone else, as John 3:36 tells us has God’s wrath abiding on him/her. You’re basing you theological beliefs on your feelings and not what the Bible says. The Bible is replete with accounts of His loving character, but it is also full of His wrath like nature.

God is continually a God of wrath just as He is a God of love. In Romans 1 we see that God’s wrath is continually reveled from heaven. Wrath is intrinsically and continually part of His character just as love is. The Hebrew word Hara is used 91 times and it refers to becoming heated, to burning with fury, and is frequently used of God. Haron is used 41 times, and it refers exclusively to divine anger and means “a burning, fierce wrath”. David declared that “God is a righteous judge, and a God who has indignation every day” (Ps. 7:11). “indignation” translates za’am, which means to foam at the mouth, and is used over 20 times in the OT, often of God’s wrath.

I could pull out a deluge of verses demonstrating God’s wrath, and I’m sure you would say I view God as a vengeful God. But all the while my opinion would be absent - I’m just showing you verses. I’m not stating, “I feel or God to me is a God of whatever”. God’s wrath is nothing like man’s anger. Orge (wrath) refers to a settled, determined indignation, not to the momentary, emotional, and often uncontrolled anger (thumos) to which human beings are prone.
Any punishment that happens after death is meaningless and serves no purpose.
Here again you’re basing your theological beliefs on your own intuition. Whether you or I believe it serves no purpose does not change what God has laid out in scripture.

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.” Luke 13:28

Where and when will these people experience this, before death, after death?

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-33 you can clearly see that this is after death. Let’s map this out –

“Lazarus dies”
“carried to Abraham’s bosom’
“he is being comforted here”

“rich man also died”
“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment”
“he cried out and said . . . have mercy on me”
“I am in agony in this flame’

So far we can see this is after death and the rich man is in agony and in flames begging for mercy and does God forgive the rich man and eventually let him in the kingdom?

“And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those WHO WISH to come over from here WILL NOT be able to, and that none may cross over from there to us.” v.26

Further on the rich man knows his kin must repent, and therefore he is aware that repentance is needed for salvation, but it is too late for him as verse 26 denotes. In this parable we can see that punishment does occur after death, and those in punishment cannot cross over, thus showing hell is eternal. Give us scripture to support the view that punishment after death is serves no purpose. God is love does not mean there will be no punishment after death nor does it imply hell is not eternal.

The lake of fire is the SECOND death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15

Does this verse or the context in which it is found suggest this happens during a person’s life? What is the lake of fire and does this occur after or during a person’s life?
When the Apostle Paul said that Jesus is the “Savior of all men, especially of them who believe,” was he wrong? Should he have said “only of them who believe”?
Much of the following was taken from John Macarthur, but don’t attribute it all to him if there is a mistake in my theology.

The word ‘savior’ does not always refer to salvation. God is the savior of all men in the sense that unbelievers get to enjoy His glory everyday. God is the savior of all men in the sense that he allows people to be depraved and reject Him and yet He still bestows the graces of this life upon them. The grace that is given to an unbeliever is the grace that has God hold His instant and immediate wrath.

The soul that sinneth dies, the wages of sin are death, how long should a sinner live? A sinner shouldn’t be allowed to live, but God allows it in this life. In a very broad sense, God is the savior of all men – He provides food, He provides life, He provides relationships, He provides healing, He provides grace and mercy for not giving them what they instantly deserve. God is a savior to unbelievers in that sense, but not in the spiritual sense.

Isaiah 63 verse 8, God is the ‘Savior’ of Israel. Was God the savior of the whole nation Israel? In what sense was God the savior of the whole nation? He was the savior of that nation in a temporal manner.

God took them out of Egypt, He provided food, physical sustenance, and when they sinned He was merciful. In a very broad sense, God showed himself to be a provider, sustainer, deliverer, and savior of the nation Israel.

In verse 9 of Isaiah 63, “In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them.” In what sense did God redeem this nation? God redeemed this nation not in the spiritual sense, not in the salvation sense, but He cared for them, He bought them out of Egypt, He bore them, He carried them all the days of old, but they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy.

God was the savior of the whole nation in a temporal sense, but in a spiritual sense only a few were saved. This is the very analogy Paul is using in 1 Timothy. Paul is saying that we have seen God provide and sustain on a world wide basis, we have seen His great wide temporal provision for men, but that provision is especially glorious to the believer; for it is not only temporal, it is also eternal.

Father of five, you can’t seem to reconcile yourself to what the Bible says on hell and therefore you seek out a view that does reconcile the issue in your mind, but in doing so you malign scripture. This is clearly evident when you took Eph 1:9-10 totally out of context to support your feelings.

False teachers do this all the time. Let’s say I feel Christians shouldn’t work, I can mold scripture to my feelings, totally ignoring the context and the whole of what the Bible says. This is exactly what you’re doing. A person’s knowledge will be limited if they are not in submission to all of scripture.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:08 pm

Why is it in your belief that it is just to send people to hell, but not for eternity? What makes it just to keep them in there for a while, but not eternally? I’m not asking for your personal feelings and biases, what I’m asking for is Biblical proof

If you are interested check "Alternative views of hell" at the bottom of Misc Theological topics.
The biblical proof is found following the trail of exactly what happens to people in the lake of fire , which is really the only real resemblance of the traditional concept of hell IMO.
Additionally there are dozens of verses that refer to all things being reconciled to Christ.
Many people seem to believe that unless hell is eternal it's not much of a punishment. I must confess that this view is beyond my ability to understand.
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