Thoughts On The Eternity Of Hell

[Guest]

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mat. 25:46) I’m aware that the Greek word translated as eternal, to some, does not necessarily mean eternal. However, why does the word ‘eternal’ life mean exactly that, eternal life, while ‘eternal’ punishment does not mean eternal punishment? The same Greek word used for ‘eternal’ punishment is used for ‘eternal’ life. Why then would you assume that the punishment in hell is not eternal?

I'd like to address this one, Benzoic. It is perhaps the most enduring argument for "eternal punishment". Indeed, Augustine, in the late fourth century, used it ----- Augustine, who doubtless influenced the later church more than any other. Augustine had been involved with a cult which believed that there would be an eternal struggle between good and evil. It seems that Augustine brought a form of that concept into the church by promoting spreading his teaching about eternal torment.

You are quite right in saying that if "aiōnios" means "eternal" in the case of the sheep, it will also mean "eternal" in the case of the goats. However, there's another little conundrum involved in the statement of Christ as recorded by Matthew. The Greek word which has been translated as "punishment" actually means "correction". In its verbal form, the word means "prune". When a tree is pruned, its growth is corrected.

Now how can one have "eternal" correction? If correction is accomplished, then it is not eternal.

Actually "aiōnios" never means "eternal". It is the adjectival form of the noun "aiōn" which means "age", and from which is derived our English word "æon"(age).Indeed, there is even an English adjective corresponding to "aiōnios", namely "æonian" whose meaning in dictionaries is given as "pertaining to an æon".

"Aiōnios" seems to mean "going from age to age" or sometimes "permanent". Of course we all know that "permanent" does not usually mean "forever".

So the goats will be given a correction which goes from age to age, and the sheep enter into life which goes from age to age. Now that does not imply that their age-to-age life will come to an end. "Aiōnios" does not itself contain the idea of "eternal". So that which is "aiōnios" may come to an end or may not.

[Guest]

Paidion,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but couldn't you say then that the "age to age" life could come to an end as well? Wouldn't that be the logical possibility?

[Guest]

Father of five, you can’t seem to reconcile yourself to what the Bible says on hell and therefore you seek out a view that does reconcile the issue in your mind, but in doing so you malign scripture.

Benzoic,

You covered a lot of ground in your post. You make a strong defense of your position. Each of us must be fully persuaded in our own mind. You seem to be fully persuaded. Two years ago I shared the same position as you. But now, I have considered other alternatives and have found a different position which, to me, seems to better reconcile all of scripture. It is not just "my feelings" as you put it, but careful study of scripture that has led me to my view.

My view is rather simple. Hell is described in some detail by Paul in the first chapter of Romans. It is something that is experienced in this life by those who are drawn away by their own lust. Those who follow Christ in faith are "saved" from this hell and are rewarded with God's spiritual blessings. There is no Universal Salvation in this life; many, if not most, choose rather to be self seeking and die spiritually. The Lake of Fire is where someone finds himself when he has chosen worldly pleasures (the pleasures of sin) over discipleship, or when he chooses love of self over love of his neighbor. This (hell) is called by Paul as "worldy sorrow" (2 Cor 7:10). To be "given over" to "uncleanness," "vile passions," and a "debased mind" (Rom 1:24,26,28 ) is the same thing as being "cast into" the Lake of Fire.

By contrast, the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) are God's reward to those who choose to follow Christ in faith. This is our inheritance in God's Kingdom. Those who deny Christ do not have this inheritance.

But we also have hope in Christ after this life (1 Cor 15:19). It is the resurrection from the dead. Does everyone participate in this resurrection? Yes.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

It is through this resurrection that God does provide Universal Salvation from death through Christ. This explains why Paul made no mention of Judgment and Punishment occuring after the resurrection in 1 Cor 15, because this punishment (worldly sorrow) was endured by the unjust during their lifetime.

There are many, many people that share this same view of hell. It is not just my view. When Jesus describes "weeping and gnashing of teeth" He is referring to the same thing as Paul when he described "worldly sorrow."

Anyway, that's the way I see it now. Who knows, may two years from now I'll see it differently yet again. I'll try to keep an open mind.

Todd

[Guest]

To the universlaists, is there any basic chronology for the restoration of all things?

My understanding of the chronology of things to come is as follows:

- At the coming of Messiah Jesus, all who are his at that point will be raised up and will rule with him for a thousand years. At the end of this time, everyone else not included in the first resurrection will be raised and those whose names were not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Finally, Jesus will be subject to the Father.

- The other main view would basically put all of the above as happening at the coming of Jesus (sans literal millennium).

With regard to universalism, when will those who have been thrown into the LOF be reconciled? Is there going to be another judgement? And are they going to have the same bodies which had been in the LOF?

[Guest]

With regard to universalism, when will those who have been thrown into the LOF be reconciled? Is there going to be another judgement? And are they going to have the same bodies which had been in the LOF?

As i understand it there is only one universal judgement which is at the resurrection on the last day of this age.
Those in the LOF , as i understand it will individually be judged by the saints and/or by Christ and after some undefined amount of time and repentence may be accepted into God's kingdom.
Since death and hades have already been destroyed it appears those in the LOF do have eternal life therefore i think they have indestructable bodies but not glorified.
I understand Rev 22.17 to be an invitation to those in the LOF since the "Bride" are already the believers who along with the Holy Spirit call out to the others to partake in the "water of life."

[Guest]

You know the bottom line is that God's plan for the unbeliever is really not all that clear, much as i wish it was clearer.
But i look at Eve and her impulses to temptation and i ask myself, since God created her susceptable to these temptations and God absolutely knew how she would react , why would God assign unbelievers who are created like Eve to eternal punishment?
It makes no sense, it is not just nor merciful, therefore i honestly believe the fate of the sinner will be consistent with God's character. Justice,mercy and faithfulness compose the weightier parts of the law and if you "love" you have fulfilled the law. And God is love.

[Guest]

Rae:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but couldn't you say then that the "age to age" life could come to an end as well? Wouldn't that be the logical possibility?

I think you are understanding correctly.

Yes, for any individual who will have been raised in the resurrection of the righteous, will still have a free will. So it will be theoretically possible for him to rebel against God again. However, I don't think it will be practically possible. For, such a disciple will have been fully conformed to the image of Christ, a process which he will have been undergoing while still a mortal. Thus he will have a character which will be much more fully formed that our present characters, and he will probably also have a knowledge of heavenly life in such a way that he would no that there could be no better alternative.

Yet, I sometimes wonder how Satan, who had been once been a beautiful archangel, Lucifer (Son of Light) could have ever rebelled against God. (Many who post on this forum do not believe that this was the origin of Satan)

[Guest]

I don't think it will be practically possible. For, such a disciple will have been fully conformed to the image of Christ, a process which he will have been undergoing while still a mortal. Thus he will have a character which will be much more fully formed that our present characters, and he will probably also have a knowledge of heavenly life in such a way that he would no that there could be no better alternative.

Paidion,

Along this same idea.... I have thought that once we have been freed from our earthly bodies we will no longer be subject to the human frailties associated with the flesh; such as "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life." These are the things that lead us to sin. These things are left behind in the grave. In the resurrection, we will not only be freed from these, but we will have complete understanding. Paul said,

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

This is will apply to everyone in the resurrection, I believe, clearing the way for the following prophecy to be fulfilled.

Phil 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Todd

[Guest]

" The Greek word which has been translated as "punishment" actually means "correction". In its verbal form, the word means "prune". When a tree is pruned, its growth is corrected.

Now how can one have "eternal" correction? If correction is accomplished, then it is not eternal.

Using the English word “correction” is not an accurate representation of what that Greek word means. That Greek word means to dock and curtail - to cut short, to lessen, to tie up, and it does not mean restore as implied with the English word correction. Being eternally docked (tied up) and curtailed (cut short) makes perfect sense.

Additionally, the word aionios was used as eternal in some of Plato’s writings such as in Timaeus 37d.


To father of five,

Phil 2:10-11 does not say everyone will be redeemed. It says everyone will bow to Jesus Christ. Just as a defeated army will bow to the king leading the victors, in this case it will be Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

To father of five,

Phil 2:10-11 does not say everyone will be redeemed. It says everyone will bow to Jesus Christ. Just as a defeated army will bow to the king leading the victors, in this case it will be Jesus Christ.

Benzoic,

I realize that it must be interpreted as you say in order for the traditional view to be correct; however, the possibility exists that these people are bowing in thanksgiving for the redemption they received in Christ. That is how I see it.

Todd