CatholicSteve,
Forgiveness first requires a transgression, a deliberate sin
Are all sins deliberate? Doesn't the Catholic church teach of unintentional sin and of original sin, both of which are not the result of deliberation on the part of the sinner?
Now, if you go to a priest you are doing what the early Christians (Catholic Christians today) did. Either they were forgiven by an Apostle or later a Bishop/priest.
We've been down this road before. The earliest Christians did not have priests. Bishops were simply episkopoi - elder believers who watched over the ekklesia. This was not a formal office. Apostles were not priests. They did not offer sacrifices. They were "sent ones" who were commissioned to preach the Gospel of reconciliation.
There are only two priesthoods spoken of in scripture for the New Testament church: The high priesthood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7-8), and the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5,9).
In James (5:16), which is quite possibly the oldest book in the New Testament, believers are told to "...confess your sins to one another..." not to a Bishop or priest or even Apostle.
Lying to a priest at confession is the sin of sacrilege.
Lying to
anyone is a sin. A priest is just a man; no different from anyone else. It is actually the priest who commits sacrilege (and blasphemy) by placing himself between men and God.
The verses from Hebrews that you quoted have nothing to do with confession of sin. They have to do with Jewish Christians who were being tempted to forsake Christ and return to Jewish legalism (justification by works). The Galatians struggled with this same temptation, which Paul warned would be "falling from grace".
Here are the Christians who have tasted, know and accepted God's Grace (Born Again) yet they "fall away", so God curses them and throws them into fire.
Wow. Your God is a brutal monster. Not at all like the God I see in Jesus Christ.
Regarding 2 Cor 5:18-20, you wrote:
Paul is very precise here in that the Apostles were given the Ministry of Reconciliation and the sinners reconcile themselves through them, through Christ (not directly to Christ, but through the Apostles). Paul tells them to be reconciled through "us".
Actually, what Paul states here is that God has "...committed to us the
message of reconciliation." This refers to propigating the Gospel message, not hearing people's confessions of sin. Paul makes this clear in verse 19 when he states what the message is, "...namely, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them." Where, by the way, is contrition mentioned as a prerequisite in this verse?
Paul wrote to Timothy "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." (1 Tim 2:5) Not a priest. Not a bishop. Not an Apostle.
In Matthew 9:2-8, the crowds marvel about the authority demonstrated by Jesus. Jesus does three things to demonstrate His authority: He proclaims that the Paralytic's sins are forgiven, He reads the minds of the teachers of the law and confronts them, He heals the Paralytic. Nowhere does this verse mention Apostles. Jesus had not yet sent out His disciples, so there really weren't any Apostles at this point.
As far as your assertion, "That is plural MEN, not "authority to A MAN" singular", the Greek word used here -- anthropos -- can either refer to an individual (man), to a plurality (men) or to a totality (mankind). You shouldn't base your arguments on the ENGLISH words that are used in a given text without first checking the Greek.
So far, what I'm seeing here is a lot of eisegesis: reading things into the texts that aren't actually there.
Cyprian (approx 250AD) was a very early Christian who died for his faith as a martyr.
If Cyprian was a very early Christian then George W. Bush is a very early American president. Cyprian lived over 200 years after the incarnation of Christ, the ministry of Peter, Paul, etc. and the writing of the New Testament. Cyprian lived a great distance from the early church, in terms of time, location and culture.
Cyprian's advocacy of a priesthood is not surprising considering his pagan background. This is the actual root of the Catholic priesthood: ancient Greco-Roman paganism. It was during the time of Cyprian that a Christian priesthood and cult (including alters, sacrificial mass, etc.) began to emerge. As to why there is no Christian response to Cyprian there are multiple possibilities; the most likely ones being that in Cyprian's locale of North Africa the idea of a priesthood was culturally accepted and/or that the writings of those who did oppose the idea have not survived (since only a miniscule amount of writings by ancient Christians have survived). Also, Cyprian's writings were not available throughout the Mediterranean, so churches in, say, Syria, would know nothing of him or his views on the priesthood. It's a mistake to assume that someone like Cyprian spoke for Christians throughout the Roman Empire, simply because some of his writings have survived.
"Father, forgive Mort, for he knows not what he does."
I thought you said only a priest could forgive sins! When you say "Father", are you referring to God or to a priest?
I think you are trying to hard with forgiveness by seeking worldly opinions on a definition that scripture is abundant on. One is simple: Acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
I think you may have missed the point, as it was rather nuanced. The two quotes I provided (which are not worldy, by the way, but are from Christian thinkers) are speaking of forgiveness from a human standpoint, which Jesus was also modeling while on the cross.
Your reference to Acts 10:43 would seem to contradict your earlier assertions that:
"God must see a contrite heart to give forgiveness."
"The Bishop and his priests forgive sin only when they see a contrite heart."
Acts 10:43 would seem to state that forgiveness comes directly through Christ and is based solely on belief, not on contrition.
Your suggested change to Paidian's remark to "true repentance is a response to forgiveness" would be a stretch. Repentance can certainly occur with forgiveness, ie, I forgive the hateful criminal that stabs me and he then becomes repentant from this unexpected and Godly response. I think this happens a lot. But I think "true repentance" comes prior to forgiveness. That is what God is looking for and makes Him really smile. That is real "free will".
You begin by saying that true repentance as a response to forgiveness is a stretch, but then go on to say "I think this happens a lot". You seem to be contradicting yourself. The issue at hand though is God's forgiveness. Scripture seems quite clear (and experience also bears it out) that God, in His graciousness and lovingkindness, extends forgiveness prior to contrition. You yourself gave the example of the Paralytic.
