Question about the 2nd Coming as described in Rev 20

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

So, Allyn, if we "do not see that God is in control" in what sense IS He in control?

God is in control because there is justice.

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

Satan's activity has always been limited. Only God is unlimited.

But I suppose you mean, Paul, that Satan's activity is restricted more than it was previously. But when I look at the evils of today's world, and compare it with what I read of the evils of the "old days", I can only agree with the apostle Paul who wrote to Timothy:

And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

The word "Nations" was used by Paul to refer to gentiles.

Yes, there is a big difference between the O.T and the N.T. In the O.T majority of the "Nations (gentiles)" were decieved and only Israel were not. In the N.T majority of gentiles are saved compared in the O.T

[Guest]

Here are more verses that don't make sense if you say the devil is already bound:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Far from sounding like a bound dragon here he is called a roaring lion. If Peter subscribed to your iinterpretation he must have been doubting a bit too.

Is the devil walking around now or is he bound???

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

1Tim 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2Tim 2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I realise many have this last verse neatly fitting into a seven year trib at the end of the age but I see chapter 12 as fitting the history of the Jews from the incarnation of Christ (the woman giving birth to Christ) to Satan's last attempt to destroy the Jewish nation ie Armageddon. If the persecutions against the Jews didn't have a Satanic origin where did they come from?

[Guest]

Hi sab, I'm going to post what I believe but instead of rewriting it in my own words, I am going to use the words of Matt Rose who is a member of this site. He has been in a debate on a largely dispensational discussion board and Has provided an emense amount of work from his studies on the subject. Here is what Matt says and then after that you and I and others can continue our debate.

Quote from Matt Rose:

Amillennialists do not believe Satan is immobile in general. We believe he is unable, specifically, to stop Spirit filled people from fulfilling the Great Commission. History lines up with this extremely well. Ever since the 1st Coming of Christ, the truth has exploded across the globe, no longer bound up in a single nation/people. It has gone to the ends of the earth.

Do you believe that Satan was DRIVEN OUT at Jesus' 1st Coming?
Do you believe that Satan was TIED UP at Jesus' 1st Coming?
Do you believe that Satan was DISARMED at Jesus' 1st Coming?
Do you believe that Satan was DESTROYED at Jesus' 1st Coming?

If you say NO to those, you disagree with John 12:31, Mark 3:27, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14.

But if you say YES to those, is the term 'bound' really that different than tied up & disarmed?

[Guest]

Very good of you to post that Allyn, it would have taken me many more words to say the same thing.

sab, Amillennialists only see Satan bound in the way the bible describes him as being bound. Matt Rose post above points this out very nicely. To me, Satan not being "bound" would mean that we are completely powerless against him, which is not the case. Even some of your own scripture citations make this point.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Resist the devil and he will flee? If the devil is so powerful, then why would simply resisting him cause him to flee?

Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Luke 10:20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

What did Jesus mean when He said He has given the authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt us? Was He kidding?
It seems that He had something else in mind besides physical serpents and scorpions, maybe He simply meant the spiritual realm in general. This is something Jesus has done, this is what binding Satan has to do with.

sab, I certainly don't mind if you disagree with this view. But one thing I urge is that you at least understand what the Amillennialists means when he states that Satan is bound. I applies only to the diminished power of the enemy (as Jesus and the apostles have stated) as well as the inability for the devil to stop the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.

So don't misunderstand us to think that we believe that Satan can't do anything at all, he certainly can. He is the deceiver of the whole world, that is, the unbelievers. Once someone has been converted by the power of God through the Gospel, that person is free from the power of the devil and now serves a new master, Christ the Lord. If we put on the full armor of God he can't stop us, just as you quoted Rev 12, that chapter also says:

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Very interesting verse. So they conquered the dragon by: Jesus blood, their testimony and sacrificing their lives. So Satan could kill them, but in being killed the faithful saints were really the conquerers!

[Guest]

Thread: an interesting read!
(especially Allyn, Sean, and Paul)....Good job, guys! You inspire me!

JESUS REIGNS!

[Guest]

JESUS REIGNS!

BUT WHEN?! That is the question

(That time is now, I think)

[Guest]

[Guest]

If you say NO to those, you disagree with...

No, I don't disagree with those verses but I do disagree with with an interpretation which makes the quantum leap to say these verses defend the premise that Satan is already bound in the bottomless pit and therefore equates the gospel age with the millenium. (breathe)

John 12:31, Now is the judgement of the world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

According to this line of thought John 12:31 says the world is already judged?

Mark 3:27 was a parable Jesus spoke which seems to have been taken out of context. Jesus was replying to the absurd accusation of the scribes who said he was casting out demons by the power of Satan.

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. If Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man."

He was saying that their accusation was illogical.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

The sting of the law was death. His resurrection proved that He has power over death - but we won't see that with our eyes and feel that triumph for ourselves in our bodies until His second coming. It doesn't support your premise that the devil is already taken, chained, cast and bound in the bottomless pit.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil.

This verse does not contradict the idea that the Devil will be taken, bound and cast into the bottomless pit at Christ's second coming.

The Apostles thought Christ would restore the kingdom to Israel just after his resurrection. That didn't happen until 1948.

One of you says Satan is bound and in the pit but still deceiving the nations now... another says Satan is bound and in the pit now and will be loosed to deceive the nations for a short time at the very end ???

Revelation 12 has quite a lot to say about the devil.
V4: He was ready to devour the child (Jesus) as soon as he was born.

V11: He could be overcome in the believers' lives by the blood of the Lamb.

V12: The devil has come down to earth with great wrath knowing he has a short time. - He knew he was defeated at the resurrection of Jesus - his time is short - shorter now than it was then - he must be about as mad as he can get - which is why things are as bad as they are in the world today. It's all going to stop at Jesus' second coming.

V 13: The devil has been busy persecuting Israel. If we look at history we see the so-called church has been his chief agent in this war against Israel. From church leaders like John Chrysostom to Luther. Now the Eastern Orthodox is still saying much as it always had. Which simply proves that the apostasy has already happened. (and therefore futurism falls flat) The bulk of the church has been apostate since about the fourth century. If the so-called church was speaking nothing but lies and hate-filled messages against the Jews it must have been "after Satan". Antisemitism was global during the 1920s and 1930s - in the bastions of protestant christianity ie Western Europe, The U.S. and Australia. There was only a change in attitude after the horrors of the Holocaust were in our face... but how soon is that forgotten. Antisemitism is now at the highest level since World War 2. As soon as the Christians let up in their attacks against the Jews Islam steps into the gap. Satan is not fussy who he deceives but for christians it also should also demolish the idea that prophecy doesn't matter.

[Guest]

No, I don't disagree with those verses but I do disagree with with an interpretation which makes the quantum leap to say these verses defend the premise that Satan is already bound in the bottomless pit and therefore equates the gospel age with the millennium. (breathe)

I think one of the major objections to the Amil view, is the belief that (as you state) Satan cannot be "already bound in the bottomless pit".

The book of Revelation is an apocalyptic writing. This means it's full of symbolic language and figures of speech. Do you believe that when Satan is bound that he will actually have a chain on him and he be cast into a literal pit that does not have a bottom? Similarly, do you believe that Jesus is a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns that was slain? (Coming from Rev 5:6) If this language is not literal about the description about Jesus, then why would it be literal about Satan in Revelation chapter 20? Could the binding of Satan not be a symbolic description of him being restrained by the Gospel going forth? Revelation 20 only mentions one
thing that Satan was restrained from doing, that is that he would no longer deceive the nations. Jesus stated that we should make disciples of all nations. That would not be possible if Satan was more powerful than the messengers. So I understand Satan to be bound in one way, that his deception can be shattered on an individual basis by the proclamation of the truth of the Gospel.

One counter-point you could raise is that the "nations" are still deceived. How could this be so if Satan has been bound so he can no longer deceive the nations (Gentiles)?

My answer would be that just as Jesus said to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations", He wasn't saying to convert each and every nation as a whole, but rather He was saying to go to individuals and preach to them. They could have just gone to the king of a nation and if he was converted, he could just order his subjects by decree to be subject to Christ. This was not what Jesus meant. He meant to go into all the world and make disciples from those people. Those individual people who were converted would then be disciples of Christ.

Likewise when Revelation 20 says that Satan will be bound so he can not longer deceive the nations (Gentiles) it is in like manner describing Satan's inability to prevent the gospel from "making disciples of all nations". So it is true that people are still to this day deceived by Satan until they hear the gospel of salvation and believe, this shatters Satan's hold on then and they are transferred out of darkness and into Christ's kingdom, a current reality (according to Paul in Col 1:13)

This also seems to be the same idea Paul has in mind in Ephesians 2 when he says:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Gentiles once were without hope, but now that Christ has come and His message has gone out to the nations, there is hope for all. In other words, Satan is bound from deceiving those who believe the gospel. The gospel, in other words, exposes Satan for the liar that he is.

John 12:31, Now is the judgement of the world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

According to this line of thought John 12:31 says the world is already judged?

Yes, in context it says the world is judged, as a figure of speech because it's ruler (Satan) is being cast out. It's like saying Germany has fallen because Hitler was dead.
Christ has replaced Satan and is now seated at the right hand of God and has been given all authority. Satan can no longer bring accusations to God as he did in the OT (Zech 3:1, Rev 12:9-10).

Mark 3:27 was a parable Jesus spoke which seems to have been taken out of context. Jesus was replying to the absurd accusation of the scribes who said he was casting out demons by the power of Satan.

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. If Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man."

He was saying that their accusation was illogical.

He was saying their accusation was illogical because:
1. If Satan cast himself out, his kingdom cannot stand: So Jesus is not demonized.

If Jesus cast out demons from a man He proves the "strong man" is bound. Satan is the strong man because he is indwelling/tormenting the demonized person (called a "house"). If Jesus cast out the evil spirit, He has proven to be stronger than the "strong man"/ the evil spirit.

What's interesting is that although Jesus said he bound the strong man, there were still demonized people, meaning the binding was a single person event. Just as Satan being bound so he can no longer deceive the nations is on an individual basis, as people accept/reject the gospel.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

The sting of the law was death. His resurrection proved that He has power over death - but we won't see that with our eyes and feel that triumph for ourselves in our bodies until His second coming. It doesn't support your premise that the devil is already taken, chained, cast and bound in the bottomless pit.

It's true we will not see our physical resurrection until the return of Christ and his defeat of the last enemy, death. However we do have the promise that:
Joh 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die."

But more to the point it says that Jesus disarmed principalities and powers at the cross! Principalities and powers are the demonic realm. Luke makes a very similar statement:

Luk 11:19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luk 11:21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;
Luk 11:22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.

Doesn't take away his armor sound a lot like "disarmed"? Was this not done at the cross?

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil.

This verse does not contradict the idea that the Devil will be taken, bound and cast into the bottomless pit at Christ's second coming.

The point of quoting Hebrews 2:14 is to show that the concept of Satan being "made inactive" isn't a fanciful idea that Amillennialist make up with no scriptural support. It rather seems to support the notion that the binding of Satan is a current reality.

The word "destroy" in Heb 2:14 is the greek word katargeō and has this meaning:

Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one

So is this how you view the Devil?

The Apostles thought Christ would restore the kingdom to Israel just after his resurrection. That didn't happen until 1948.

I disagree with your interpretation of the events of 1948. Are you saying the kingdom of God has been taken away from the church (who's head is Christ) and given to unbelieving Jews in the land of Palestine? How could God take away the kingdom from Christ the king? Is it possible for Jesus to do something wrong in order to lose the kingdom?

In my understanding Christ is the king of the Jews. All those who reject Christ, Jewish or Gentile are cut off (Acts 3:23). Christ is head of the congregation of all believers (the Church). The remnant of believing Jews (true Israel) have had Gentiles grafted onto them (Rom 11 & Eph 2-3) so all believers, Jew or Gentile are part of one new body, the body of Christ, the church. This seeming to be the case would make it impossible for God to take the kingdom from the Messiah and His people and give it to those who reject God and the Messiah.

Jesus said:
Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

The other problem is that you seem to equate the Jews being back in the land a sign that the kingdom was given back to them (per Acts 2). Yet, when Peter asked this question in Acts 2, were they not at that time in the promised land? Why would Peter ask about the return to the land if they were not yet cast from it?

One of you says Satan is bound and in the pit but still deceiving the nations now... another says Satan is bound and in the pit now and will be loosed to deceive the nations for a short time at the very end ???

I tried to answer this above.

V 13: The devil has been busy persecuting Israel. If we look at history we see the so-called church has been his chief agent in this war against Israel. From church leaders like John Chrysostom to Luther. Now the Eastern Orthodox is still saying much as it always had. Which simply proves that the apostasy has already happened. (and therefore futurism falls flat) The bulk of the church has been apostate since about the fourth century. If the so-called church was speaking nothing but lies and hate-filled messages against the Jews it must have been "after Satan". Antisemitism was global during the 1920s and 1930s - in the bastions of protestant christianity ie Western Europe, The U.S. and Australia. There was only a change in attitude after the horrors of the Holocaust were in our face... but how soon is that forgotten. Antisemitism is now at the highest level since World War 2. As soon as the Christians let up in their attacks against the Jews Islam steps into the gap. Satan is not fussy who he deceives but for christians it also should also demolish the idea that prophecy doesn't matter.

Actually, the devil has been pursecuting the church (as well as everyone else) as stated in Revelation, Satan is mad so he's going after:

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is speaking of the remnant of Israel, the church. Those who obey God and are faithful to the truth. This isn't speaking about all Jews in general. It's speaking about those who obey God and keep the testimony of Jesus.