Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

what specifically about the WOF movement would you say is heretical?

This is for everyone, not just Darin.

The reason I ask is that there is WOF, then there is simply "faith."

I believe much of evangelical christianity has abandoned faith as depicted by the early church. We reason that "God doesnt work that way anymore" and thereby free ourselves of the responsibility to do what Jesus said to do.

By the way, the video presentation makes a very clear distinction between WoF and mainstream Charismatics.

[Guest]

The Word of Faith movement has it's roots in the metaphysical teachings that became very popular in the late 18th to mid 19th centuries. These included the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg, Franz Anton Mesmer (from whom we get the word "mesmerized") and Phineas Quimby. Quimby had come into contact with these teachings (sometimes referred to as "New Thought") when he attended the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston. Emerson continued to be a hotbed of New Thought teachings for several years. One of Quimby's students was Mary Baker Eddy, who founded the Christian Science religion. Two other students of Quimby's founded the Unity School of Christianity (similar to Christian Science). In the early 1900's a man named Ernest Holmes who had studied the writings of Quimby and Eddy founded a religion called Science of Mind. E.W. Kenyon, who is considered the "grandfather" of the Word of Faith movement also attended the Emerson College of Oratory and was also heavily influenced by the teachings of Quimby, Eddy, et al.

Kenyon became a popular Pentecostal preacher. His teachings had a profound influence on F.F. Bosworth, John G. Lake, T.L. Osborn, and Kenneth Hagin, Sr. Hagin is considered the "father" of the Word of Faith movement and his teachings have, in turn, been modeled by Kenneth Copeland and countless other Word of Faith teachers.

New Thought metaphysics are very dualistic in nature. They teach a dichotomy between the spirit and the material. The spiritual is seen as holy, while the material is seen as profane. This dualism can be traced all the way back to the gnostics and even farther back to Plato. Nowadays, this dualism is also commonly seen in New Age teachings. The New Thought teachings all revolve around the belief that we can change the material world with the power of our mind. In other words: "believe it and receive it" or "name it and claim it". Eddy (Christian Science) substituted the word "prayer" for mind. Kenyon substituted the word "faith" for mind.

WoF teaches that faith is a spiritual force which can alter the physical realm. Words are the containers of this force. Thus, in Genesis 1 God spoke the universe into existence. Likewise we, being made in the image of God, can speak things into existence. One form of this teaching is called "Positive Confession", whereby one can make the universe conform to one's will by speaking as if what you want is already a reality. The flipside of Positive Confession, btw, is Negative Confession (or cursing). Many WoF'ers live in a constant state of superstitious fear that they will accidently make a negative confession. Thus, if a WoF'er is beginning to catch a cold, he will not admit it--that would be a negative confession. He will instead insist that he is in perfect health, even when it's obvious to everyone else that he is sick. Thus, it is difficult to know when a WoF'er is being honest about their condition, be it physical, financial, marital, etc.

There are a lot of other wacky and bizarre teachings in the Word of Faith movement. It's a shame that the WoF teachers are so prevalent on TV and radio. Elements of their teachings seem to have seeped into all corners of Christendom.

[_TK]

Darin wrote:

By the way, the video presentation makes a very clear distinction between WoF and mainstream Charismatics.

This is a good thing, i suspect.

What do you all make of the following episode from Mark 11, with special attention to the underlined portions:

12 Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. 13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
And His disciples heard it.
****
20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. 23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

TK

[_TK]

darin wrote:

One of the video clips even had one of the popular teachers suggesting that it was a sin to pray "in the will of God" as it reflects a weakness of faith (in our own power).

I assume this means the practice of praying for something and then throwing in the buffer line "if it be your will" at the end. It may not be a sin to do this, but it's a faith-killer, pure and simple. Not long ago we were praying for someone at the church who really needed healing; we laid hands on him, one of the elders anointed him with oil; a couple of people prayed really strong faith filled prayers, then one of the elders concluded the praying and ended his prayer with the phrase "if it be your will." What a deflation! He wasn't healed, either.

Anyone- please show me where Jesus or the Apostles taught us to pray like that.

I dont think the Lord's Prayer counts, because Jesus was requesting that God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven(there's no sickness, death, sin, disease, war, strife, disunity, etc in heaven). That's different from praying that something happen "if it's your will." I don't think you can count Gethsemane either, because jesus already knew what God's will was. His statement "not my will, but yours" IMO was a statement of resignation, not request.

Please understand that i am NOT a proponent of WOF, by any means. But I am on a journey of getting out of my old way of thinking about prayer, faith, the authority of the believer, etc. My old Baptist way of thinking ain't where it's at. That much I know.

TK

[Guest]

TK,

I think you mean something different than I do when you talk about faith, not that I have a total handle on what I mean by the word faith. What does it mean to you?

[leannauh2]

TK,

I know that you probably do not want to swing over to the word of faith side of prayer and faith, because let me tell you my old WoF way of thinking ain’t where it’s at either, that much I know.

So what is it about saying “if it be your will” that is so faith deflating? Do you think that God was somehow disappointed in your church for saying that at the end of the prayer? That maybe he would have healed that person if you didn’t say that? It sounds like you may think that God cares about formulas, or procedures, or protocol when we pray to him. Do you really think our Father is like that? Do you think He is that picky that if we say or do not say if it be your will, that he wouldn’t do it if it was actually his will? Don’t you think that if God is like that then he is just playing games with us? Would you do that if your Children asked you for something important, even knowing that you were going to give it to them, and they said daddy only if you really want us to have it? I know what I would probably say, and I dare say you would to, and that is, “it is my will”. Isn’t that also what Jesus said to someone on one or two occasions who was asking for healing? So I think that person in your church would have been healed, if it was God’s will. I’m not saying He is not holding out for something, He may be, but I don’t think He is holding out for a proper phrasing of a prayer, mixed with an inflated idea that God responds to my belief that He will definitely heal if I maintain a belief that this is His will.

What about this passage in Matthew 8:5-10?

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him,
saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented."
And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.
For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, "Go,' and he goes; and to another, "Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, "Do this,' and he does it."
When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

So the centurion came to Him, pleading. Pleading for what. To me that appears to be he was ASKING Jesus to heal his servant who is lying paralyzed, and tormented. Most “faith” prayers I hear are TELLING God to heal. By the simple act of asking means inherently if it’s your will to do so, isn’t it? Isn’t asking a reflection of two possible outcomes; Yes or No?

Also the centurion said, “but only speak a word, and my servant will be healed”. Isn’t that like saying if it be your will? The centurion knew who he was talking to, he knew His character and he put his trust in Jesus. He knew that if it was His will all he had to do was speak the word and it would be done. So he asked Jesus, Jesus said yes, and the centurion knew that Jesus didn’t even have to come to the house. This was great faith.

As for the underlined portions of Mark 11, are you saying that there is some sort of emphasis on us speaking things? The bible talks about us and Jesus talking and saying things a lot. I believe all it is saying is that this is our way of communication. Not that there is any power in or there is anything special about the communication, it’s just communicating. Jesus said things because he wanted people to hear him. If we never communicated with our voice, but could only type, then these verses would have said, “In response Jesus typed to it,”, or “whoever types to this mountain”, or “but believe that those things he types will be done, he will have whatever he types”. We will have whatever we communicate to God, in faith believing that we will receive an answer and whatever is his will for us to have. The last part of Mark 11 you quoted must be balanced with other scripture, or in isolation these verses could be used and are used to bolster the WoF position. I do admit this passage is difficult for me to come to grips with when I look at it in isolation from the rest of scripture.

Shel

[_TK]

Good question, Michelle. I'm not too sure WHAT I mean!

There is faith, then there is FAITH. A lot of people have faith in the facts of the Bible- i.e they believe what it says is true.

The question is whether we have enough faith to do what the Bible says to do.

For example, Jesus told the disciples to go and "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."

If the disciples didn't have faith that they could do what Jesus said, I dont think they would have had success. but they did have success, and they rejoiced. But they didnt have 100% success. When Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration, the disciples down below were unable to cast the demon out of the boy who was having seizures. When Jesus came down, and cast out the demon, he told the disciples it was because of their unbelief. Unbelief is not the same as lack of faith; in my mind unbelief is simply paying more attention to what our five senses tell us than what God tells us. Peter had faith he could walk on water-- he did it for a while. But when he "saw the wind and the waves" he was stricken by unbelief, which countered his faith. down he went!

TK

[_Steve]

Hi TK,

You were not sure that the line in the Lord's prayer, "thy will be done," would be relevant to the inquiry as to whether we should include the caveat "if it by your will" in our prayers. You felt that "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is essentially a request that conditions on earth should become just like conditions in heaven, where "there's no sickness, death, sin, disease, war, strife, disunity, etc."

I have some thoughts about this. First, I think the prayer is not asking that all of the conditions in heaven should prevail upon earth at this moment—for example, in heaven, everyone experiences a direct vision of God, and all humans there (by my theological understanding) are disembodied spirits. Not only is there no sickness and death there, there is no marriage or childbirth there either. Not every condition in heaven is appropriate to present existence on earth.

Someday, when Jesus returns, earth will have many of the same characteristics as heaven. If our prayer is intended to be a request for all things on earth to become like all things in heaven, we would have to understand the petition to be related to the ultimate realization of this in a perfect world at the coming of Christ—which may be precisely what it is referring to. In offering this petition, we may be praying for the end of the world as we know it, and the coming of Christ to set all things right.

If this is the case, then we would not anticipate this total transformation, the ultimate answer to our prayer, when there will be "no more curse" (Rev.22:3), prior to the second coming of Christ. Thus, if Jesus is not going to come today, then we would have no reason for expecting everything to be transformed (i.e., no more marriage, childbirth, sickness, death, etc.) until that final day for which we are longing and praying.

There is another possible meaning to this petition in the Lord's Prayer, however. I suspect that it may simply mean "May your will (for the earth) be done in earth, as your will (for heaven) is done in heaven." That is, we desire that events and conditions on earth may, in the interim, be made to conform to God's will for earthly events and conditions, just as events and conditions in heaven already conform to His will for heavenly events and conditions. But it may not be the case that God's will at this time is for the conditions on earth to be just like those in heaven.

The point being that life on earth is intended to be a time of trials and temptations (that is one of the main purposes for our being here—1 Pet.1:6-7/ James 1:2-4/ Rom.5:3-4). For us to endure these with grace, to pass every test, and to grow through them is precisely what the "Thy will...on earth" may be. When our tenure on earth is over, assuming we pass the tests, we will then go to another place, where it is not the will of God for us to be further tested.

When we come to Christ's prayer in Gethsemane, I think it is relevant to our question. You say that Jesus already knew God's will was for Him to die, and I agree with you. However, He apparently wished to alter something through His prayers, or else He was simply using His last opportunity for prayer on earth to verbalize pious phrases without meaning. I don't know to what part of His agony He may have been referring when He asked that "this cup" pass from Him, but He apparently felt the liberty to ask it, and (as with all things) to condition His request with "if it is your will." I believe that this condition is to underlie every plan and petition of the believer, whether it is always spoken or not (James 4:15).

I don't think that humble resignation to the will of God is a faith-killer. In fact, it is precisely what I believe faith to consist in. Saying, "if it is your will" did not prevent a miracle occurring for the leper in Matt.8:1-3.

[_TK]

Shel wrote:

Do you think that God was somehow disappointed in your church for saying that at the end of the prayer? That maybe he would have healed that person if you didn’t say that? It sounds like you may think that God cares about formulas, or procedures, or protocol when we pray to him. Do you really think our Father is like that?

No to all of the above. God can do whatever He wants, and I believe he blesses us in spite of ourselves. But I do believe that God responds to faith. I think that is a "law" that He set up.

OUR faith is an obvious element to seeing prayers answered. This is stressed by Jesus and his apostles. God wants us to have faith that he will answer our requests. To me, this concept is ruined by the phrase "if it be your will." Some people might be perfectly able to pray for something and have all kinds of faith and still utter this phrase. I cannot. I used to pray that way all the time,

Look at it this way. If God is only going to do what He was always going to do, why pray anyway? if we dont believe our prayers mean something, why pray?

In regards to the "speaking" aspect, this is how Jesus operated. He rebuked the sea, he talked to the fig tree, he told the man to stretch out his hand, he told the man to take up his mat and walk. From what I see, the apostles worked the same way. Peter told the lame man to rise and walk. Paul told Simon that he would be blind, etc. This, I believe, is a concept that has been lost to most evangelical churches.

Don't worry about me, like I said I have no intention of becoming a WOFer. Ken Copeland, Hinn and his ilk make me gag.

TK

[_TK]

And, I meant to add that Yes, I do believe that some people are not healed (even though it is God's will to heal them) because either 1) they don't have faith or 2) the person praying does not have faith.

TK