The End is Near...

End Times
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_brody_in_ga
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Post by _brody_in_ga » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:22 pm

rvornberg wrote:
Paidion wrote:I would say "no". That phrase does not necessarily clue us in as to a time frame. Both lexicons and the context of the word indicates that in many instances "generation" refers to a people or race (those who have been generated). In this case, the reference is probably to the generation of Israelites who will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.
So, what Jesus was saying is: The Israelites WILL pass away after those things are fulfilled.

1. I thought God had a plan for them?
2. Does that destruction of them also include believing Israelites?
Exactly.

The whole chapter is about the nearness of the destruction of the temple, and for Jesus to insert the idea that the Jews would not pass until these things were fulfilled is a bit wacky to me.

Of course I am no scholar though, and could be wrong.
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For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:40 pm

Brody wrote:When Jesus used "This generation" in Matthew 24, he was not speaking about a race of people, he was talking about that generation, in relation to time, not race.
Sounds very authoritive! Now you just need a teeny bit of evidence to back up your statement!

I do have evidence for mine. First, all lexicons indicate that "genea" may refer to a people group ---- people of the same stock ---- a family.

Secondly, other NT passages bear out this meaning:

The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Matt 12:41

Jesus spoke these words to the leaders of the Pharisees. They were the generation which will be condemned by the Ninevites at the judgment, not all people who lived at that time.

And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." Matt 17:17

Was Jesus addressing a people group here? Or was he addressing all people who were alive at the time?

Consider the words of Peter to those responsible for Christ's death:

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." Acts 2:36

Now who was Peter addressing? The house of Israel or the generation of people who were alive at that time?

They responded to Peter's statement:

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

And he testified with many other words and entreated them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." Acts 2:37-40


Now was he asking them to save themselves for the Messiah-rejecting Jewish people and their leaders? Or was he asking them to save themselves from all people from that particular time frame? If the latter, what was specially evil about the people of that time frame as opposed to those from any other time? Why should they be saved from that particular generation of people?

Was John the bapizer speaking to a people group ----the Pharisees and Sadducees in the following passage? Or was he speaking to all the people of his day?

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Matthew 3:7 AV

There are many other NT passages which indicate the same meaning of "generation".

Now please tell us how you can be so very sure that the word does not refer to a people group in Matthew 24.
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Paidion
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_brody_in_ga
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Post by _brody_in_ga » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:51 am

Paidion wrote:
Brody wrote:When Jesus used "This generation" in Matthew 24, he was not speaking about a race of people, he was talking about that generation, in relation to time, not race.
Sounds very authoritive! Now you just need a teeny bit of evidence to back up your statement!
Don't worry, I have more than a teeny bit.
I do have evidence for mine. First, all lexicons indicate that "genea" may refer to a people group ---- people of the same stock ---- a family.
At first glance, your above statement may sound impressive, but when one takes into account that the context always sheds light on the meaning of a word, your argument quickly loses its flare.
Secondly, other NT passages bear out this meaning:

The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Matt 12:41

Jesus spoke these words to the leaders of the Pharisees. They were the generation which will be condemned by the Ninevites at the judgment, not all people who lived at that time.

And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." Matt 17:17

Was Jesus addressing a people group here? Or was he addressing all people who were alive at the time?
I notice you abandoned the context of Matthew 24, why is that? Is it because when one reads Matthew 24, he/she can tell right away that Jesus was speaking of something that was very near? Lets look at the passage at hand. Matthew 24:32-34 (NKJV) "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near; at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

How do you account for Jesus asking them to learn the parable of the fig tree?

The following quote by David Chilton is very informative: "Some have sought to get around the force of this text by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means 'race' in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51;18:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24!"
Now please tell us how you can be so very sure that the word does not refer to a people group in Matthew 24.
See above. [/i]
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_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:58 pm

Yeah Pai...You really don't have a leg to stand on regarding the definition of the word genea. Now if it were the word genos I would have to agree with you. Genos was used in the NT in speaking of race. But in context the word genea is not once if I remember correctly ever speaking of race.

In the case where the term, "this generation" is used in Matthew 23 & 24 it only means people living at that time.

Good looking out brody_in_ga

Pmike
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Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.

Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary

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Post by _Paidion » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:19 pm

PMike you wrote:But in context the word genea is not once if I remember correctly ever speaking of race.


Well, Pmike, I will attempt to refresh your memory. In each case, the word "generation" is the translation of "genea". Jesus said:

Case 1
"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,
and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Matthew 11:16-19


Now let's see. What is the context? To whom was Jesus speaking? Was he addressing the whole generation of his contemporaries? Matth 10:1 indicated that he was teaching and preaching in their cities. Whose cities would that be? The cities of the Jews, of course. For Jesus said that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So "this generation" refers to the people of the Jews, not to all people everywhere who lived in those days.

Case 2
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."

But He,responded,and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. Matthew 12:38,39


Who is this evil and adulterous generation who craved a sign? Clearly Jesus is addressing the scribes and the Pharisees. They ask for a sign (miracle). They are the evil and adulterous generation. Certainly not the whole generation of people living at the time. Gentiles would have no concept of "the sign of Jonah the prophet."

Case 3
"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Matthew 12:41

Let's see. Would Jesus have been referring to the whole generation of people living in that day? But why would the men of Ninevah stand up at the judgment and condemn that generation? Was that generation any more wicked that any other generation before or since?

No, the men of Ninevah will stand up and condemn the scribes and pharisees, supposedly leaders of Israel, but who were wicked, and rejected the Messiah whom God has sent to them, and the people whom they taught in the synagogues who also rejected him.

Case 4
When they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus, falling on his knees before Him and saying, "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him."

And Jesus responded and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." Matthew 17:14-17


In this case, Jesus directly addresses the "unbelieving and perverted generation".
To whom was he talking? To people in general who lived in that day? Not at all. He was addressing "the crowd", a crowd consisting entirely of Jewish people --- people who rejected him as Messiah.

He came to his own place and his own people did not receive him.
John 1:11


There are many other places in which "genea" clearly refers to the Jewish people of the day who had rejected the Messiah. But surely the above examples suffice.
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_samcllr
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Post by _samcllr » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:13 pm

Paidion,

Yes, if taken at face value you could make an argument that the entire generation would have to be in mind if "race" is not what Jesus was referring to. But because of the fact that the group he was referring to is not that ambiguous, I truly believe it takes an exegesis of necessity to press the exactness of Jesus' statements concerning "this generation". The fact that he was speaking to "[that] generation" is enough to figure it out. But in general, "[that] generation" of Jews fits the description given in each statement. In fact racial margins can be merely implied without breaking any rules of communication. After considering some of Jesus' other statements on other subjects, it seems apparent that it is not necessary for Jesus to clarify the subjects of the "genea" that he was referring to by marginalizing the "genea" into racial categories. He spoke like that generally, as did others.

And Matthew uses "genea" in chapter 1 referring to contemporaries in context and not race. That gives strong support for Matthew understanding that word in that context. I have not come across a place in scripture where the interpretation of "genea" is better rendered "race", though I know the Lexicons give that definition as a possibility. I won't argue that to the extreme.

So, though I understand that not all of Jesus' contemporaries would fall under the category of "this generation", neither could all of the Jews throughout history fall under the category of "this race". I think it would be difficult to press the "racial" view over the "contemporary" view especially when the exactness of Jesus' statements couldn't even be pressed on the "race" of Israel any better than the "contemporaries" of Jesus.

No other examples of yours demands an interpretation other than "contemporary" so I feel no need to go any further in this post.

I hope this is viewed as respectful.
Peace brother,
Sam
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