Calvinism and Universalism

[Michelle]

It would work equally well on ANY planet! Why not?

Um, yeah, why not, RND?

[RND]

RND, those are man-made divisions --- not astronomical phenomena.

But Paidon, that's the point. Without the astronomical phenomena of hours, minutes and seconds the division of time into exact co-ordinates would be impossible.

The globe could just as well have been divided into twenty-nine sections, and had 29 hours in a day.

Only by the illogical.

So what! They could have been divided any other way, with a different size degree.

But that would be like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. You are really missing the point. The globe is influenced by 24 hours in a day. 360 degrees are divided perfectly by 24. Simple math. What you're proposing would be illogical. God is not the author of confusion you know!

And what does that have to do with the length of an hour or a minute or a second? Absolutely nothing! 60 seconds in a minute, and 60 minutes in an hour had its origin the Babylonian sexagesimal system, based on 60, rather than our decimal number system based on 10.

I never suggested anything different did I? I just showed you how the longitudinal and latitudinal system was created with time, nothing more. No reason to get all wadded up Paidon. This is after all very simple math.

There is no astronomical basis whatever for the second, minute, or hour.

On Jupiter, Pluto, or Venus I would certainly agree. On earth it is self-evident.

[RND]

It would work equally well on ANY planet! Why not?

Oh sure, I can divide Venus into a 360 degree grid of longitude and latitude. No problem there. But Venus' rotation isn't nearly as fast as that on earth. A "day" on Venus is equal to 243 Earth days. Unfortunately it's orbital period around the Sun is only 225 days. That means a "day" on Venus due to it's slow rotation is actually longer than it's year.

So you can see that a perfectly divided earth into 360 degrees is in perfect harmony with it's hours, day and year. What were you saying about "equally well on ANY planet?"

[RND]

It would work equally well on ANY planet! Why not?

Um, yeah, why not, RND?

I don't know.

[Michelle]

...ok....

So, Paidion, this idea that God didn't create time is intriguing to me. Events have sequence and events have causes, both of which require time. Do you think that time is just a by-product of the way God created things? It, time that is, seems so important and so, well, natural, that it doesn't seem right to say it is just a by-product. Maybe I'm using a poor word for what I'm trying to express...

[RND]

...ok....

Right above my answer of "I don't know" is my answer to Paidon. I was just being a smart-alleck.

[Michelle]

...ok....

Right above my answer of "I don't know" is my answer to Paidon. I was just being a smart-alleck.

I know, no problem.

[SteveF]

I can divide Venus into a 360 degree grid of longitude and latitude. No problem there. But Venus' rotation isn't nearly as fast as that on earth. A "day" on Venus is equal to 243 Earth days. Unfortunately it's orbital period around the Sun is only 225 days. That means a "day" on Venus due to it's slow rotation is actually longer than it's year.

So you can see that a perfectly divided earth into 360 degrees is in perfect harmony with it's hours, day and year

Nobody knows for sure how 360 degrees originated. Some have speculated that they calculated 1 degree for each day it takes for the earth to around the sun. Only problem is, it actually takes longer than that.

But the 7-day cycle which we call the "week" probably has never changed from the week of creation until the present day. So Sabbath keepers such as RND, feel confident that they keep the Sabbath on the correct day.

True for Judaism, but it's also interesting to note that different cultures have had anywhere from 4 to 12 day weeks.

Also, the calendar we presently have has been altered on a couple of occasions. Can we know for sure that the seventh day is really the seventh day? Since this is an important issue for you RND, I'm certain you've looked into this...right?

[RND]

True for Judaism, but it's also interesting to note that different cultures have had anywhere from 4 to 12 day weeks.

Currently, there are no cultures on earth that have anything other than a seven day week.

Also, the calendar we presently have has been altered on a couple of occasions. Can we know for sure that the seventh day is really the seventh day?

The Bible is fairly clear as to when the seventh day is. Jesus was crucified on "preparation day" which is Friday, the day before the sabbath. Jesus rose on Sunday morning, the "first day" of the week. To this day Jesus' rising from the tomb is marked with "Sunrise" services on of all days "Sun"day! Of course, this "Easter" service generally isn't close to the Sunday after Passover, but that's a different story.

Also, look in most dictionary's and they will tell you that Sunday is the first day, Saturday is the seventh day.

As for the alterations to the calendar, I only know of one instance where the days were certainly changed but not the weeks. In 1582 when the Julian calendar was changed by Pope Gregory the dates went from Thursday, October 4, 1582 to Friday, October 15, 1582.

Since this is an important issue for you RND, I'm certain you've looked into this...right?

Of course!

Now that I have thoroughly taken this thread into a completely different direction than intended (with some help of course!) would anyone like to discuss these topics separately?

[Paidion]

Oh sure, I can divide Venus into a 360 degree grid of longitude and latitude. No problem there. But Venus' rotation isn't nearly as fast as that on earth. A "day" on Venus is equal to 243 Earth days. Unfortunately it's orbital period around the Sun is only 225 days. That means a "day" on Venus due to it's slow rotation is actually longer than it's year.

So you can see that a perfectly divided earth into 360 degrees is in perfect harmony with it's hours, day and year. What were you saying about "equally well on ANY planet?"

On earth, dividing the day into 24 hours, and the hour into 60 minutes, and the minute into 60 seconds, has absolutely NO BEARING on any astronomical events --- and it has no relationship to the YEAR (or the length of revolution around the sun). The length of an hour is entirely arbitrary. We could have had a metric hour --- 10 hours in a day; 10 minutes in an hour; 10 seconds in a minute; 10 deciseconds in a second, etc. It would have worked just as well. In that case, there would have been 10 time zones, with 36º in each zone, rather than 24 zones, each covering 15º. Any problem with that?

With the rotation of Venus being longer than its revolution, I guess the same side of the planet would be facing the sun most of the time. I don't know how "hours" would work on that planet. So I retract my statement about "any planet".

However, there would seem to be no problem in dividing the planet Mars up into 24 time zones with 24 Martian hours in a Martian day. Mars rotation takes only 39 Terran minutes longer than a rotation of the earth. This would mean that each Martian hour would be 61.625 Terran minutes. But the Martian hour could still be defined as 60 Martian minutes, and each Martian minute as 60 Martian seconds. That wouldn't be a problem, would it?

All of this is manmade, and has no relation to astronomical events.

In the case of Venus, I have difficulty visualizing the rotation of a planet whose day is longer than it's year. It would seem that the same side would be facing the sun most of the time, just as the same side of the moon faces the earth. So I'm not sure that that "day" could be divided into hours.