Reigning with Christ?

[anochria]

Rev. 20:4-6
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I was going to ask this question when Steve was in Camas last weekend, but didn't get to it.

When discussing soul sleep, he said he tended to disagree with it but expressed that he was pretty neutral on the subject (I hope that's accurate). Later, when he was discussing amillenialism, it occurred to me that the above passage, from an amillenial perspective, which I also share, seems to stand in strong contradiction to the idea of soul sleep. This in turn got me wondering what Steve's perspective, as an amillenialist, is on this reigning discussed in Rev. 20:4-6. Who and what does it actually entail? (who is ruling and what does that ruling look like)

Other perspectives are welcome, but I'm most curious about what others from an amillenialist perspective would say.

I've got some ideas I can throw in as well.

Thanks!

[anochria]

Thoughts?

[MoGrace2u]

I don't know much about the amil understanding other than they seem to spiritualize this passage. So perhaps I have already disqualified myself. But I do have an opinion

That we are being given a glimpse into the spiritual realm here seems clear. The souls of beheaded saints to me speaks of the apostles and disciples of Christ who suffered for their testimiony. They were the ones who Jesus told would be the judges over Israel. Certainly in their earthly life the apostles fulfilled this task with spreading the gospel. And do not the apostles continue to witness to us today thru their words? I would say that judgment is ongoing in the earth as men are bound or loosed from their sins by the hearing of the gospel.

So if this is the case, noting what is going on in heaven as its results are seen in the earth, then the resurrection of the dead and the judgment has commenced too. Which seems to be why John was given this glimpse after the beast and false prophet hit the lake and the devil was bound in the pit. However long this 1,000's of years is to last - it does appear it will come to its end after a short season of rising satanic deception. Which is where I depart from preterism and see that as still future then - and perhaps present now.

[Paidion]

John was given visions. In his vision, he saw the souls of the people beheaded. We can't take this any more literally than much of the rest of John's visions. One example: John saw the New Jerusalem coming out of heaven. It had streets of gold, gates of pearl, and foundations adorned with every kind of jewel. Many take this literally as a description of heaven. But how did the angel announce this vision to John? He said, "Come,I will show you the bride, the wife of the lamb." Revelation 21:9
So the city symbolizes the bride of Christ, and its description has symbolic meaning in understanding the nature of the bride.

We read in Genesis that the "blood of Abel" cried out to God. Did Abel's blood actually cry out to God? Or is this a figure of speech indicating that God was fully aware of the murder of Abel.

[Jill]

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[anochria]

I’d have to agree most with MoGrace2U here, but while it’s true that the saints on earth could be said to be reigning with Christ (cf Rev. 5:10), I think this passage teaches that the departed saints are reigning with Him in a special way.

I see this passage as in line with Jesus’ eschatological parables (such as the one about the servants who will be left in charge of 5 cities/ 10 cities) and in Paul’s strange comments about how we will one day even “judge the angels”.

Though there may be some symbolic imagery used (such as thrones, for instance) I think this passage implies a handful of concrete expectations:

1)That the departed saints are conscious. This a strong proof text against soul sleep, imo, especially coupled with John’s emphasis on the fact that these saints are “brought to life” or “live on” after their death, as part of the first resurrection.
2)That the departed saints are aware of the events on earth (in line with John’s comments about the martyrs under the altar, which I do see as teaching their consciousness after death, though colored with some symbolic imagery)
3)That these saints reign with Christ in a real, active way. (note, Karen, that this phrase is used not to imply an equality of authority with Christ, but an active sharing in his reigning as agents of His authority) Perhaps they assist in making decisions regarding the affairs of earth, or, like the angels, act in some way as agents of his will.

Obviously, this is in stark contrast to Paidion’s view. But I don’t think it’s enough for him to say it’s “symbolic” and then point to ther “symbolic passages”. If you think this passage is highly symbolic, then I think he (you ) should tell us what it really means then and we can debate that.

Lastly, I’d like MoGrace2U to know that I consider myself a partial preterist who sees the end of the millennium as yet future as well.

[christopher]

Although I do not share Paidion's view of the state of the dead, I do share his view on this particular passage. The detail of the vision need not be broken down and pressed into any particular theological system. Earlier in the book, Jesus said:

Rev 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
NKJV

To me, "reigning with Christ" simply implies that these martyrs have "received the crown of life" by being faithful unto death. I think it safe to say that their example of being "faithful unto death" can be construed as a command to do likewise. Thus, they are reigning with Christ in the sense that Jesus commanded it, they did it, and therefore the rest have no excuse not to.

It kind of reminds me of reading Hebrews 11 and then Paul (er, um, the author) concluding:

Heb 12:1
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
NKJV

The testimonies of the faithful are like a cloud of witnesses telling us what to do. And there other examples like that of metaphorical personifications of dead peoples actions. Some Paidion listed, but others like Jesus saying certain people and cities would "rise up in judgment" against His generation (Matt 12)

Anyway, that makes the most sense to me at this point.

[anochria]

I'll like to respond by considering some of the implications of a passage where Paul speaks of our future judgments:

1 Corinthians 6:1-6

1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

In this passage, Paul is contrasting the questionable competency of Christians in conflict with each other with the assumed competency he's convinced we will one day have in deciding issues of monumental importance (don't you love how he says "do you not know that we will judge angels" as if it's a rhetorical question. Paul is such a tease!)

This argument would seem to lose most of it's steam if, as you seem to be describing, the reign of the departed saints is merely figurative "example" rather than a conscious reigning as an agent of Christ's authority, because, you see, he seems to be implying that we will need competency for it.

In regard to your Hebrews reference, while I agree that the text does not necessitate that the cloud of witnesses referred to is anything more than a literary device, I think it is reasonable to infer that to the author of Hebrews it is more than a literary device. When later in chapter 12:22-24 he says:

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I think he really means that in the Church real angels and real saints (the cloud of witnesses) are mystically present just as assuredly as Jesus Christ himself in present.

And let's not forget the disciples experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, when two of those "literary references" actually show up on the scene tangibly as witnesses (I guess instead of a cloud of witnesses, Moses and Elijah here were witnesses in a cloud )

Lastly, the view I'm arguing for is much more romantic. Am I right or am I right?

[darinhouston]

Is it not possible that the departed saints who were beheaded, etc. are indeed a special case and that they somehow are alive and aware in heaven in a way that "normal" saints are not? Perhaps, most of us who die are in a state of soul sleep awaiting Christ return while others get the privilege of an active role in that intermediate state. Just a thought.

[mikew]

Is it not possible that the departed saints who were beheaded, etc. are indeed a special case and that they somehow are alive and aware in heaven in a way that "normal" saints are not? Perhaps, most of us who die are in a state of soul sleep awaiting Christ return while others get the privilege of an active role in that intermediate state. Just a thought.

I agree that the beheaded were a special case (anyone dying as a believer in the first century). It isn't quite apparent how their state might differ from subsequent believers though.

Here's some ideas that formed as I considered your response... but the ideas apply to many of the posts.


Jesus spoke of Lazarus as "being asleep" since Jesus spoke in advance of the idea of Christians who would die and be waiting until the time of awakening (Dan 12:2). Of course the concept of sleep is according to the view from people who are physically living -- that a dead person is only sleeping if that horizontal state is temporary. So the description of death as sleep is mainly from our perspective, not from those who have gone to sleep.

So Jesus had in mind the context of Dan 12:2. Yet this passage was speaking more about those alive and dying after Jesus' resurrection. Those who slept consisted of those who died during the events of Dan 12:1, the tribulation, or the time of the start of the Church until the judgments of AD70.

The Dan 12:2 resurrection then is shown to be connected with Dan 7:

Dan 7:21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. (ESV)

So to possess the kingdom, they had to be raised. But they could only be raised after judgment was made against the specified Roman ruler.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.(ESV)

This connection of ideas, just presented, seems to explain the basis for the vision in Revelation and why it is said that these believers would reign with Christ.

The millennial period then is not separate from the kingdom of God but only represents a period of the development of the kingdom that occurs without the world encountering the deception of Satan.